homophobia - still alive and well?

Great Debates
1

I’ve noticed that many people who claim to be “straight, but not narrow” use accusations of homosexuality as insults. I see this often in the BBQ Pit (where I don’t usually post, but I read to keep up with what’s going on in our little community).

Just recently, I saw a post saying (to a poster with an obviously masculine name) something about “your addiction to male prostitutes.” I have also seen posts where people imply that a poster is gay, and then immediately add “just kidding.” (Sorry, don’t have any examples at hand.) Why the need to add “just kidding?”

Is the accusation of homosexuality considered an insult nowadays? I submit that if someone uses an accusation of homosexuality as an insult, that is showing a thinly veiled form of prejudice.

On a related note, the teen-agers I’ve asked have said they don’t use the word “nigger” but “faggot” seems commonly used (again as an insult.) Is this the norm amongst young people in the USA? When I was a teenager, calling someone a “pédale” (the french version of “faggot”) was a common insult, but I was thinking that times had changed.

2

Seems to me that PC, political pressure and general social awareness (education really) has made much deeper inroads in the area of ethnic prejudices than sexual ones.

3

It always has been considered an insult. Maybe it is a form of prejudice, I really haven’t thought much about it as it is not really something that effects me. However, I feel that I must point out that prejudice is not fear. Homophobia is a fear of homosexuals. It is possible to be intolerant of, or prejudiced against a group or thing without fear of the thing.

Some people do still use the word “nigger”, although it is not nearly as acceptible as “faggot”, which coincidentally is the norm amongst young people in the USA.

http://www.killersurf.com/mojo

4

no saying someone gay isint a form of prejudsice its a insult. Saying someones homosexual as a insult would be a prejudice. However saying someone is gay is just a insult, because gay meant happy long before it meant gay

5

Actually, the word has expanded in meaning and become a catch-all. Many people use it to mean “to dislike” as well. When I looked it up at dictionary.com, they said it meant “aversion to homosexuals”.

As for whether it’s common to use it in derogatory way, yes sometimes. I can recall being called gay during junior high because of my tom-boy appearance. My neighbor, who’s straight, said the taunt was used against her throughout high school.

However, I’m not sure if all kids who use it really understand it fully. In junior high, I had no clue what it meant, only knew it wasn’t meant to be nice.

6

The F and N words are not permitted to cross my lips under any circumstances. IMHO, outside of homosexuals and blacks, it’s an obscentity to utter them even descriptively.

I might call a men’s lavender shirt with sleeve ruffles “gay”. Not because it’s stupid, but because it’s something associated with an exaggeratedly stereotypical gay man. Likewise, I might call a sleeveless leather vest and leather pants “gay”.

I also call stupid protestant hats and clueless uptightness “WASPy”. I sometimes call arrogant personal rudeness “French”. If someone is being obnoxiously anal-retentive about meaningless rules, I might hum the Horst-Wessel song under my breath; the Gen-X term “body nazi” is similar.

I don’t know… There seems a point where stereotypical attributes of a group are humorous; none of us is so perfectly urbane and flawlessly stylistic that we don’t partake of some behaviors or styles that seem silly outside of our own context.

If I want to insult someone, I will usually stick with descriptive terms: stupid, whiny, self-righteous, arrogant, obsessive, etc.

The only categorical term (a term to indicate someone is in a category) I use with any frequency is “Jesoid”, which I apply to people belonging to that peculiarly Christian group of self-righteous, narrow-minded, smugly superior people who waste my time telling me how much they pity me because I haven’t found “God”.

Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

7

Regarding the non-use of “nigger” versus the use of “faggot,” to my knowledge there is no respectable group left in this country that openly promotes hatred of blacks (there are several NON-repectable groups that do so, but never mind them). Thus the word “nigger” is no longer respectable, and one who uses it is generally thought of as a racist jackass.

However, a number of respectable (and perhaps I should use quotation marks around that word) groups promote hatred and discrimination against homosexuals–most Christian sects, most of the Republican Party, a good chunk of the Democratic Party, etc. Legally speaking, gays are not considered real people in many ways.

It is therefore no surprise that a lot of people use use the term “faggot” as an insult–it’s still a perfectly-acceptable way for the childish and the stupid to call someone a subhuman. And I’d imagine it will continue as long as we permit our society to treat homosexuals as subhuman.

Ok…now we can all go back to discussing how much better we are than India and its caste system…

8

According to this logic - that anyone who talks badly about racial stereotypes is a racist and about gay acts with a negative conotation is homophobic, I suppose that means that makes Richard Pryor, Chris Rock, and many other black comedians racists, it makes Howard Stern an anti-Semite, and it makes our own Esprix - who has been known to make fun of his own proclivities from time-to-time, a homophobe.

I am far from homophobic. I think anyone who knows me even a little bit would say so. I’ve been hit on by gays folks before - my reaction was, “Well, it’s nice to be found attractiive, but I’m straight” (in so many words). I worked with gays, lesbians and bi-sexual folks and didn’t care that they were that. In fact, I probably know a lot more than I think I know because I don’t really care.

That said, I will still flame someone in The Pit by saying something along the lines of, “I hear youu enjoy rest stops on the highways,” or other silly shit like that, which essentially takes a gay stereotype and puts it on someone negatively.

Now, does saying this and thing like it from time to time in jest make me a homophobe? I hope not, and I don’t think so.

Fuck all of the PC nonsense for the love of God!

Yer pal,
Satan

http://homepages.go.com/~cmcinternationalrecords/devil.gif

TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Three weeks, 19 hours, 1 minute and 20 seconds.
871 cigarettes not smoked, saving $108.96.
Life saved: 3 days, 35 minutes.

9

[QUOTE]
**
I also call stupid protestant hats and clueless uptightness “WASPy”.

I have to know - what in the heck is a “protestant hat”?

“Is the accusation of homosexuality considered an insult nowadays? I submit that if someone uses an accusation of homosexuality as an insult, that is showing a thinly veiled form of prejudice.”

Sometimes it’s an insult, and what’s strange is how it’s done. Among bigots of a heterosexual persuasion, it then implies that you are less than a “real man/woman”, and among gay/lesbian/bi folks, it means “you’re deluded - we can all see you’re really gay/lesbian/bi”.

I myself would submit that an insult can show a prejudice, but does not necessarily do so. You may say, “Oh, I can’t stand X, he’s such a raving queen.” This does not mean you hate all gay people, just X, whose mannerisms as a raving queen get on your nerves. I think it’s a form of mental laziness in this case, simplyfying X’s behavior by means of a shorthand you would assume your listener would understand. However, I think this is pretty easily sorted out from the shout of “%$# faggot!!”, which can be interpreted to mean “I hate all people I perceive as gay and will beat you severly if I think I can get away with it.”

10

These days, it seems to me, that the word “gay” can have three meanings. It used to mean “happy.” Usually, it means “homosexual.” But, especially in junior high and high school circles, it is a simple derogatory term that seems to have little to do with homosexual people. It’s a description of something or someone that can mean pretty well anything nasty. You could say “that guy is wearing such a gay shirt,” meaning you think the shirt is ugly. You could say “that guy is so gay,” meaning you find him unfriendly or unpleasant to be around. You have to take the word in context and consider the speaker and the audience before you can tell what it’s referring to and what is meant by the comment.

11

Satan, if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that you’ll “slam” someone by using a gay stereotype. Two points:[ol][li]What makes you think that using a gay stereotype is slamming someone?[/li][li]Would you think of slamming someone by saying “you must be one of those dumb watermelon-eating darkies?”[/ol][/li]
I don’t see why being PC is a bad thing. If I someone I know using the word “nigger” or “faggot”, I think it’s perfectly acceptable to tell them that those terms are rude and should be avoided.

12

There’s PC and then there’s PC… To nit-pick over whether “childless” or “child-free” is the correct term for a person or adult family without children is just a time waster. It is intelligent common sense to eschew a term as obscene, e.g. N***** and F*****, that has the denotation of oppression, violence and hatred.

Part of the issue with disparaging remarks is the issue of undeserved superiority and self-righteousness. To make a remark indicating moral superiority of a group as a whole is, IMHO, even worse than indicating moral superiority to an individual. A group doesn’t have a moral nature, only individuals do; it’s the flimsiest of straw men.

A comment such as “I hear you enjoy rest stops on the highways” is descriptive and not categorical. It states (absent the emotional terminology) that the recipient enjoys reckless promiscuity. As a descriptive term, if it is accurate, it is unobjectionable. If it is inaccurate (and probably was not intended to be accurate), the insult lies in the mind of the listener, not the words of the speaker. And it does not imply an characterization of a homosexual stereotype any more than calling someone a “Lothario” categorizes or stereotypes all heterosexual men.

When a person makes disparaging remarks about his own group, the charge of self-righteousness and moral superiority cannot apply, because the speaker is disparaging himself equally. For this reason, Chris Rock can get away with forms of humor that would earn me a well-deserved charge of racism (self-righteous moral superiority based on race).

To make fun of the silly things that people do is not derogatory or disparaging, because we all do silly things. For this reason, such a remark does not indicate self-righteous moral superiority. We are all free to laugh at our own human foibles. But one has to exercise careful judgement and tolerance when dividing up attempts at humor into the disparaging and the innocently humorous.

Personally, I find this distinction too fine and I don’t engage in categorical humor any more. I prefer to stick with universal humor: puns, embarassment, stupidity, hypocrisy and sexual frustration. :slight_smile: But I do have a collection of great jokes derogatory to men and WASPs, as I am a member of both groups.

P.S. I don’t recall the exact title, but P. J. O’Rourke has a snorkingly funny essay about ugly Protestant hats in Republican Party Reptile.

13

SingleDad says:

You are correct in saying that an individual is in charge of his/her own feelings, and can choose whether or not to become indignant when referred to in a particular way or accused of a certain behaviour.

My point was that the insults chosen by a person reveal also the state of mind of the speaker.

For example, if I call someone a godless communist, they may or may not take offense, but it would reveal that I personally think being a godless communist is a negative trait.

Similarly, if I say “why don’t you go play house with your boyfriend” to another (presumably male) poster, and said poster’s views of homosexuality are unknown to me, then the logical conclusion would be that, since I use the implication of homosexuality as an insult, I personally am a homophobe.

14

**

Because back in junior high school, people thought it was a slam. The difference is that back in junior high, they wanted to hurt another kid with the designation. Whereas I will do it in attempt to get a laugh or two.

I once called someone here a “necrotic crotch goblin.” This alluded to them being gay. It was funny (well, I got some compliments for it).

When Esprix - and I still don’t know whether his initial concerns were a joke or not - brought up that he felt that me making a gay reference was beneath me, I commented that if I wanted to flame him, I’d call him a pussy licker for the sheer perversity of it all.

We then proceeded to go at it a bit, joking around, and I believe it ended up with him hitting on me.

To make a long story short (too late!), calling someone gay or a fag is FUNNY. Now, is there a time and a place for ANY kind of humor, this included? Certainly! But I believe that when (I think) SqrlCub started a thread saying he was bummmed out and wanted some words of encouragement, and I responded by saying, “You’re okay… For a FAG!” both he and everyone else in the thread laughed. They got it.

I refuse to apologize for making people laugh.

**

I don’t see the humor in that in particular. But, you know, timing is everything in comedy!

Seriously now, do I see the humor about the differences betweeen all of us? Yes! And I feel that humor is a great way to bridge the gaps that separate us.

See, it’s different here because on a message board, color or race is not applicable. But in real life, have I, when hanging out with black friends, made some jokes? Yes, I have. And have I been equally joked around with? You bet your ass I have.

Now, would I walk through Harlem saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger” some early evening? No. But will I sing along when I listen to NWA rap, “Straight outta Compton, crazy motherfucker named Ice Cube / From the gang called Niggaz With Attitude” and even wear a shirt from them that says “Niggaz For Life” on it? Yes.

Here’s the problem with the PC bullshit. Everyone is worrying about the fucking words people use, but the thoughts BEHIND those words - which is what needs to be changed in some people - goes unchecked.

It’s like spraying purfume on shit.

To me, homophobia, racism and sexism are not about the words you use (though no denying that any words with certain context behind them can hurt), it’s how you FEEL and TREAT other people that counts.

Ultimately, I think the true definition of those words is if you treat someone differently based upon sexual orientation, race or gender. I do not. And the PC-police telling me I should say “African-American” do no good as far as I’m concerned.

Yer pal,
Satan

http://homepages.go.com/~cmcinternationalrecords/devil.gif

TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Three weeks, one day, 22 hours, 21 minutes and 39 seconds.
917 cigarettes not smoked, saving $114.66.
Life saved: 3 days, 4 hours, 25 minutes.

15

Especially since some blacks were offended by the designation. They felt it was a way of categorizing them as a different sort of American or a half an American when all they want to be is just American.

It’s also quite amusing to watch American tourists in other countries refer to the native black population as African American. They get odd looks.

I think Ted Danson would agree with you as well, since he got blasted for his roast of Whoopi, despite the fact that the blackface and watermelon were Whoopi’s idea.

Really, it’s just a judgement call. You know better than anyone who you can safely rib and see the humor and who will be offended.

16

“Spraying perfume on shit.”

Damn, I’m gonna have to remember that one.

I don’t think that’s true. Calling someone a godless commie is one of my preferred insults, even though I’m not religious, and I’m not a communist, but I think communism is far from being the worst possible form of governement. In fact, the reason I like using that insult is because it’s so unlike me, and even less like the person I’m using it on. Absurdist humor so to speak.

17

SingleDad:
“There’s PC and then there’s PC… To nit-pick over whether “childless” or “child-free” is the correct term for a person or adult family without children is just a time waster.”

I believe the point in that particular instance was that some people who do not have children PREFER the term “child-free”, and that it really wouldn’t hurt to to so. By way of returning to the OP, some of my friends do not like to be called “gay”, and prefer “queen”, “nelly”, etc. To dismiss this stated preference with “Oh, what a PC time-waster” is both lazy and rude.

18

:::sitting back and watching the str8 people trying to decide what’s offensive to gays:::

19

I think it was the New York Times that refered to Nelson Mandella as a “African American” , now that is bringing p.c. too far.

As to the OP.

This is the norm in Ireland aswell . I probably hear somebody being called a “fag” at least once a day . Some people are so stupid about it , that if they see you doing something nice for somebody you are asked “are you queer or what”? Sad but true .

20

Otto - interesting, isn’t it? Then again, the question was asked…