Actually, I did notice it. And I, for one, appreciate it.
Now that was just mean.
Okay, fair enough. You have an opinion. You then used your opinion, which is based on your personal experience, and extrapolated it so that it covered an entire segment of the population. That is wrong.
and this. . .
formeragent:
Your inability to piece together a sentence aside, what does expressing one’s sexual orientation have to do with the country? Or is there something you know that you’re keeping to yourself?
And what if one of your children is gay? And don’t tell me about the impossibility of that, because you cannot know.
manhattan, all thanks.
And finally, I really liked this, from aviddiva. Especially the last sentence.
Is it understood that one can believe homosexuality to be wrong and yet not be homophobic nor haters of homosexuals?
I’m not afraid of homosexuals, nor do I hate them, but I do think the act is wrong. To make it a little more fair, I think sex outside of a male/female marriage is wrong. Homosexuality and fornication (a forlorn word) are on par with each other.
So, the original question is there reason for this outside the Bible? Clarify, please. Reason for hatred? No. Never. Reason to believe it wrong? Certainly.
For one thing, the anus is not designed for that kind of punishment.
Basic bacteriological disease is spread through anal sex.
Obviously, the spread of STD’s and AIDs would be stopped within a generation if monogomous same-sex marriages were universally followed.
There are (arguably) maturity issues at stake (a man needs a woman and probably children to mature towards fruition).
Those are just a few of the top of my head.
Someone earlier mentioned hetero-bashing as if it does not occur. Perhaps not in that sense, but I assure you if homosexuals are involved in a crime, it will not be reported in the media. The recent 14 year old boy murdered in a sex-games rape by two adult homosexuals was never reported in the media because the gay lobby is so strong it had no trouble surpressing it.
The behavior at Disney on “gay day” is never reported fully (it is incredibly lewd. A heterosexual doing the same things would be expelled from the park).
The behaviour at Volunteer Park in Seattle is condoned and never reported. Open sexual acts performed in front of children and church groups is overlooked.
Homosexuals as an all-encompassing group can never be discussed en-mass because they are too diverse. Oft-times it is one small group making the whole look bad. I don’t think the Disney or VP people speak for the whole cohort, but it’s hard to convince a lot of people of that fact.
Besides (and this point has been made here at the SDMB countless times, but I guess it needs to be made again), except for (arguably) your last point, you are talking about homosexual behavior, not homosexual orientation. And, you know, some straight people do that stuff too.
I won’t speak on the biblical reasons for (ahem) not caring for homosexuality.
Now, then:Robbnn:
Waddaya wanna bet she’s gonna mention the AK issue?
Okay, first of all, the fact that the young man in question died without people, nationwide, screaming for vengeance was a damned shame. But if you are going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that it was the gay lobby (& what is that? A tastefully decorated foyer?) that kept it out of the news, then you are willfully deluding yourself. Hell, if they had that kind of power, don’t you think that they would have legally recognized marriages, and enforced taste laws on the books?
So. How many times have you been to Disneyland on “gay day” and witnessed these terrible, shocking displays of carnality?
Gonna have to take a pass on this one. Anyone else out there familiar with Volunteer Park?
On this, we agree. Wholeheartedly, as a matter of fact. Don’t want to be accused of not giving props when they’re due.
Dredging out quotes from Leviticus and Paul and prooftexting with them is what makes people here tend to hate “born-again Christians.” So let me put my ten cents on the table. First, the Law:
We are free from the Mosaic Law. Chaim can practice it as much as he wants, but any Christian who tries to enforce it on another is going to explain to Paul the whys and wherefores of doing that before he even gets to Peter or to the Throne of God. Paul includes a remark if not an extended discourse about not being under the Law in virtually every letter, and bawls out some of his correspondents for trying to enforce the Law on their fellow man. So take your copy of Leviticus and…well, we’re not in the pit, so let me suggest you make paper airplanes out of it.
Now, Paul…in Romans 1 he reflects on the worldly culture of the 1st Century and how it separates man from god. He makes a passing allusion to homosexual lust and appears to be seeing it as a punishment for being worldly. Then he begins Romans 2, after cataloging worldly behaviors including homosexual activity at the end of the first chapter, with the blistering accusation “So also were some of you…” (the Christians of the church at Rome).
So what is Christian morality? Something a lot more stringent than following 613 Torah rules more or less:
[ul][li]Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and soul and mind and strength. This is the first and great commandment.[/li][li]And the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.[/li][li]Judge not, lest you be judged.[/li][li]Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness.[/li][li]Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.[/ul][/li]That is of course not all-encompassing. But the bottom line to all of it is that you are called to live the kind of life that God wants you to live, and not sit in judgment over others. Jesus’ harshest words are reserved for those who think they have an “in” to God by following some rule they attribute to him, as opposed to those who they look down on for not doing so.
And if you want an example of Christian righteousness, take a good hard look at Judy Shepard and her husband, whom I’m humbly proud belong to the same denomination as I do.
That child torture-rape-murder in Arkansas was terrible. No argument. There are evil gays in the world. No argument. Hey, a black man shot three people in a holdup here a while ago. Does that mean all black people are evil? You’d be called seventeen kinds of racist for saying so. So howcum you can tar all gays for the actions of two demented ones? There was a murder in Sacramento a month or two ago by two brothers who claim God told them to do it. This makes all Christians homicidal maniacs? As for the “gay lobby” (I like the image of the tastefully decorated foyer!), the local daily, two alternative weeklies (all gay-friendly), and even the little gay tabloid all reported it. You think they let their memberships in the National Gay Conspiracy lapse?
Er, yes actually. My experience has been that it’s a very nice place during the summer, occasionally clean (better than most public parks, IMO) and not particularly frightening during the day. At night I would be concerned about muggers and drug dealers, but apart from kissing, hand-holding, and some minor petting I’ve seen no evil acts of mind-numbing carnality.
“The anus isn’t designed for that kind of punishment?” is a reason to be uncomfortable with homosexuallity? (Well, leaving aside obvious bad jokes…)
I’m still trying to figure out if there is an argument that makes any sense that one can use for holding that homosexuallity is wrong that doesn’t come from the Bible–there was an excellent post on Mosaic law, by the way. If it just comes down to “I don’t like it,” than people who are uncomfortable with it are only relying on their taste. That seems unsatisfying to me.
Yes, I’ve been to Disney on ‘gay day’. Yes, I witnessed what I discribed.
It was my church group that was at Volunteer Park; the actions were in response to our group praying over our picnic lunch.
No one spoke of tarring all gays because of the actions of these two rapists. The story was discussed at my newspaper and spiked because the backlash would be too strong. We’d get calls from groups, lobbiest (yes, they do exist and they are quite strong), we’d get nasty letters… the point that it would have been newsworthy if it were a male/female couple made no difference. While my paper is too small for proactive action on the part of gay lobbyists, the larger papers heard from them quite loudly. Ask anyone on the editorial side of a newspaper and they can tell you this.
And yes, you can believe homosexuality wrong and not hate or fear them. It’s pure ignorance to think you have to agree 100% with someone to not hate or fear them. My gay friends know where I stand, but they also know I accept their right to choose their lifestyle.
I also don’t think comfort has anything to do with it. You asked for non-Biblical reasons that homosexuality might be wrong, and I gave a few. Yes, though, my main basis is the Bible.
I don’t expect unbelievers to live by the Bible. Nor do I plan on forcing anyone to do what I believe if they do not hold those convictions themselves. I do, however, believe in absolute truth. Seek the truth and you’ll find it. You may grasp it better than I do at this point, but I’m learning too.
Will you please explain to me just what the heck the “gay lifestyle” is? My gay friends live in long-term relationships, have responsible jobs, pay taxes, contribute to the community, are kind to their parents and to their pets. Just which part of this “lifestyle” do you find so objectionable?
If it’s what they do in bed, homosexuality is not a “choice.” If you could choose your sexual orientation, honey, I’d have become a lesbian years ago.
Good for you! That puts you one up on most of the folk who use that tired old chestnut.
Well, that’s truly unfortunate. I sincerely wish it had never happened. But, you say this:
Now, it sounds like you were harassed while praying over your lunch. Am I correct in that? But I fear you have lost me inre the open sexual acts. So, what’s up with that?
Well, actually, you used it to illustrate the strength of the “gay lobby”. And Poly pointed out that it was covered in all the press where he is.
Well, if your newspaper refused to run a story because of a backlash, then your newspaper is cowardly. And yeah, I know that people call into the local newspaper and bitch. Last time I checked, they were within their rights to do so. And I’ll try to contact someone here in KC to find out if they were barraged with calls from the tasteful foyer. If I can, I’ll post whatever the response was. Poly, could you do the same?
Help me out here. . .did someone actually tell you that if you did not agree with someone that you hated or feared them?
If you actually believe that they “choose their lifestyle”, then you have the most wonderful, tolerant, gay friends in all the world.
You lost me again. Comfort?
Which kinda gives lie to you referring to them as non-biblical.
And I, for one, am ever so grateful.
Glad to hear it. Yes, it’s true. And you’ve got me blushing when you say that I may grasp it better than you. And high color wreaks havoc on my complexion.
I suspect that Robbyn meant “orientation” here, but Wasteful took her to task on what she said, and I wanna put in my 10c. Sure, everybody chooses their lifestyle. Eve could move to rural North Carolina and start a farm if she chose. (Sounds like it might make a good sitcom! ;)) Phaedrus could become a party animal. Satan could become a straight-laced three-piece-suit type.
We do not choose our sexual orientation. But how we live our life, within the bounds of our physical and psychological givens, is definitely a choice.
There are celibate Christian gays who believe homosexual practice is wrong…we all know one who posts here regularly. There are straight people who espouse the “homosexual lifestyle” (presumably in tastefully decorated foyers :)).
It’s more than a semantic quibble. People are individuals, not members of some particular subset of humanity that happens to include some aspect of their nature.
I have to throw something all into this mix. My friend who was obesely fat that I’ve mentioned before was a Mormon at one time. This is important because he is also gay. After he took whatever vows Mormons make he stopped having sex or dating any and all men. He was still gay but he was no longer a sexual individual. This is all fine and dandy you say, but here is where the real nastiness comes in. He had a friend who is gay and went to his (the friend’s) birthday party at a gay bar. He was only there to support his friend and drive anyone home who was drinking. Well, another member of the Mormon church he went to was there as a spy and reported him to the church. Well, they excommunicated him horribly (which has actually caused a lot of scars) because of the fact that he was at a gay bar. It was brought up that he had not acted on his feelings but still identified himself as gay. Anyway, he is not allowed back into the church until he stops identifying himself as a gay man. Well, after he was excommunicated he saw no need and has actually started having sex…but that is another issue.
Just stirring the cauldron a little.
HUGS!
Sqrl
PS. Thanks to everyone who stood up for me and my people during our siege. I don’t mind differing opinions, in fact I like opinions that cause me to define my feelings and beliefs, but there has to be a basic respect there for that was not present. Thank you again…everyone…you know who all of you are.
Gasoline: As an accompaniement to cereal it made a refreshing change. Glen Baxter
Choice, shmoice.
If you advocate the freedom to love who you want, the argument regarding sexual orientation and genetics vs. choice is a sidetrack. Gays and lesbians and the hets who share their convictions believe that no one has the right to tell another person who they can and can’t love in a mutually respectful and non-exploitative way. You love and are sexually attracted to women and/or men. Whether you were born with this orientation or chose it is utterly irrelevant.
To argue that gays and lesbians do not choose their orientation is to give a point to those who argue that there is something wrong (for whateve reason) with being gay. It is to concede (tacitly) that it’s not really o.k., but, hey, it’s not their fault; they can’t help it.
The issue is not whether anyone can choose whom they love; it is whether anyone else has a right to say they can’t.
The last post was in response to others after my previous post.
Yes, my newspaper is cowardly.
The open sexual acts at VP were just that. Groping, grinding, and further. Presumably it was to get us out of there. I have heard of this happening to other groups, as well, but since I wasn’t there for those, it’s not appropo to talk about them.
I don’t think my biblical base puts the “lie” to the original post’s reasons. I tend to believe God has other reasons than sheer abritrariness (a word?) to forbid things.
I did mean lifestyle. I have a number of “urges” that I don’t indulge (some make homosexuality look angelic in comparison). If I did, it would be a lifestyle (and a jailable offense).
Obviously everyone here believes homosexuality is in-born. I’m totally open to the concept, but I don’t find the evidence for it. What is it? Chemical? Genetic? Show me, I’ll believe. Don’t show me and I’ll still believe it’s conditioned as my “urges” are.
Oh, and yes, someone did say I “hate and fear” “THEM” if I don’t agree with them.
People are people. We all sin, we all do some good. No one is better than anyone else, not even me. Or you. (Well, maybe my Mom. She’s almost perfect.)
Robnn–first, STD’s could still be spread even with totally monogomy and heterosexuallity, because sometimes spouses die and the survivor is still infected. (Also, cholera has become an airborne virus in the last generation–I’m betting the same will happen with something that is now an STD).
2nd,well, anal sex is not the only kind of sex homosexuals can enjoy. I’m willing to bet that most lesbians don’t go in for a lot of backdoor action.
3rd, the idea that men need women to mature to fruition (aside from leaving out the lesbians againg)–says who?
The reason I’m trying to have the Bible left out of the moral/ethical equation is that there are many Biblically strong arguments against homophobia, but that debate isn’t all that interesting.
If you simply have to rely on ethical argument, without recourse to “God says,” then what is WRONG about homosexuallity?
I’m no prouder of being gay than I am of being anglophone or of mixed race. What I am proud of is how being gay has given me a certain amount of perspective on the oppressed of the world which I don’t feel I would have gotten so easily if I hadn’t belonged to an oppressed category; and I’m proud that I’ve been able to rise above homophobia.
