Incidentally, Aviddiva… you go, girl!
All apologies, then, Robbnn, if I ever referred to you as a female.
I spoke to a woman in the editorial department at the Kansas City Star who said that they did, indeed, receive calls about the young man who was killed in Arkansas. All of them were from folk who had first heard about it on a local talk radio station. She said that there were no calls from any gay lobbyists, either pro or con.
She also explained that the reason this instance was not covered, as opposed to Matthew Shepard, was because the prosecutor was not using hate crime legislation as a basis for the case.
That said, there was a recent case here in the area that involved a mother who killed her sons. I would be willing to bet that your newspaper did not run a story about it. If I am wrong, and it did run, please let me know. I apologize really well. What with the groveling and debasement and all. If I’m right, though, then why did your newspaper fail to do so?
I would also like to know the name of the paper in your area that was afraid to run the story. I would like to speak to someone in the editorial department directly. If you don’t want to post it, then an e-mail would suffice.
Now, onto the rest of your post:
While I can understand that you were uncomfortable, I fail to see where groping and grinding could be construed as open sexual acts. As far as the “and further”? You’ll have to give me a little more detail.
Yes, it very probably was to get you out of there. This is a public park, is it not?
What is it about homosexuality that you consider on par with your “urges”? Is it the act? Or simply loving someone who is of the same gender?
You’ve not met Adam, then?
And what evidence do you have to support your hypothesis that it’s all urges and choices? Have you ever been homosexual? If not, then you have no way of knowing whether or not you are right. I imagine that matt or Sqrl might be able to give you a lowdown on why they don’t consider their sexuality to be an urge.
Fair enough. . .I must have missed it.
Waste
Flick Lives!
Just a note of clarification-
Any judegments of gays based on who you know to be gay, like the uncle mentioned a lot above in this string are just that - PEOPLE YOU KNOW TO BE GAY.
They annoy me too (I’m gay). The ones who you don’t know to be gay are just that - PEOPLE YOU DON’T KNOW TO BE GAY. They may be gay, they may not. Even with a ring on their finger, voting republican or going to church, they may be gay - you just can’t tell.
If you don’t know they are gay, you can’t form opinions about them relative to their homosexuality, NOR can you form opinions about what the “average” gay persona is, simple lack of data. Nothing more complicated than that. Blacks are easy to identify visually, non-obvious gays are not. There are tons of them around. Even conservative estimates put gays to be more plentiful than each of the follwing groups (considered separately, not in total):
Jews,
Japanese Americans
Chinese Americans
Indians Americans
Buddhists in America,
Moslems in America.
Do you know any of these? If so, you probably know some gays - the less obvious ones are just unrevealed to you.
You probably work with one and probably don’t mind them too much.
They won’t mention they are gay for several reasons:
They are discreet
You have indicated you don’t like gays
They are married (to a woman)
You never asked.
As a gay man, I see lots o married-to-a-woman gay men with ring out and about in the bars, for your purposes these men are straight.
I also see a lot of you-would-never-know type gays out and about at bars etc.
Then there are all the ones who never go out to bars, are home happily married to the same sex.
A lot of people probably like gay folks - just ones they don’t know are gay.
My problem is that when I am interested in becoming friends with a female I have to tell her my story so she doesn’t think I’m on the make.
And yes, people who liked me before have found out I was gay and gotten quite cold. Even in cases where I never brought it up, or talked about my escapades, nor mis-represented fake girlfriends or the like - what I wonder is: why would someone’s fantasies about what I’m doing in my bedroom make them not like me, when I never brought it up??
This is a relevant issue for many gays, the ones who do not flaunt it.
The answer for some (NOT ALL I STRESS) is men who are closeted have a reaction as do women who were hopeful for a more than platonic friendship.
I don’t judge anyone by what I IMAGINE they are doing at night. None of my business.
Well said Rob!
SqrlCub: Great post!
HUGS
Ken
FTR, Word up people, yes, gays have lobbyists, yes, they are powerful. To deny it is to be unaware of facts that are easy to get from many sources. Want to believe otherwise? Be my guest.
I have stated this before but let me state it again. Gays are people, people just like you and me. They are different than I am because I do not have any sexual attraction for my own sex. In fact, I cannot even conceive how a man could want to have sex with a man. Women are just too sexy and attractive to me!
Males are more aggressive than females and THIS includes homosexual men. MEN cause wars, MEN rape, MEN have bathhouse sex in ways that are so repugnant and so vile I cannot believe it. MEN have more testosterone, C19 H28 O2, and THAT makes their behavior different from women. Get educated! Or do you think that hormones have no effect on people?
I hadn’t heard about the 14 year old in Arkansas but I believe it. I was molested when I was five years old by a homosexual, I never forgot it. pldennison and I had a talk about it in the pit when I was “playing” the old man persona. Let me clear that up.
NO ONE has the “RIGHT” to hate another. Period. DO YOU THINK YOU ARE PERFECT? Come on, get real! ALL people sin or if you’d rather, make mistakes. It is the Christian “thing” to forgive. Remember about casting stones? I have had many gay friends that I love very much, they are people who do things that I think are wrong. I also have friends that lie, they are in the same category. I have friends that know that I have done things that THEY consider wrong. I don’t feel condemned by them, I know they love me and my gays friends know I love them. LOVE is what counts, LOVE is what matters.
Do you have to be a Christian to love? or forgive? HARDLY! But to do it to the extend that God requires of us as humans I think it is impossible to without His help.
A good read on what “some” homosexuals are capable of regarding subversive tactics is Michael Fulmento’s, “The Truth about AIDS” get it, read it, and learn to love if you haven’t already.
Peace
Ken
Okay, a clarification is in order (because it was asked for). The ‘act’ of homosexuality (a man laying with a man, or woman with woman) I believe is wrong. The feelings, the “urges”, are not. It’s what you do with them that matters.
Someone asked if a man loving a man is bad. I can only assume you mean with the erotic dimension added. I think it’s destructive. I believe that philo love has been tied with eros through a conditioned response that does harm.
My “proof” that it is conditioned instead of in-born is, perhaps, weak. But not as weak as the in-born argument (or I’d believe that).
First: the software should conform with the hardware.
Second: no genetic or hormonal or chemical trigger has been found (and the search for it has been long and hard… ahem)
Third: Conditioning is an incredibly powerful psychological tool. The more complex the target, the more powerful the effect. The sex drive is hugely complex, so the conditioning is very powerful.
That, in a nutshell, is why I think it’s not in-born.
Non-biblical reasons for why it is wrong still stand, I think. STD’s and AIDs might not be STOPPED, but the reduction would be so dramatic the effect would be the same (and this applies to non-monogomous hetero’s as well).
Man (and woman) is an asymetrical being psychologically and physically – the broken coin, if you will. To be completed a compliment must be engaged.
Someone else said something about gays not being treated equally by law. Now, I do disagree with that. A gay man or woman obviously has all the same rights a straight does and none of those rights should be abridged. Everyone should be allowed to work where they are best suited, etc. What rights are being abridged at the moment?
Another question I have, tied to that, is “what are Gay Rights?” I’ve never been able to get a straight (no joke intended) answer to that.
RobRoy: I’m sorry to hear about those who have chosen to respond negatively once you were out to them. If it’s any consolation, I imagine that you’re probably better off without them as friends or acquaintances.
Now, Ken, I am fully aware that there is such a thing as a gay lobbyist. And yes, they wield some degree of influence. However, when I am told that they exercise such a degree of power as to kill what would have been a legitimate news story, then I scoff. Because it is quite simply not true.
Just out of curiosity, where are you located? And are you saying that this story was not covered at all in your local press?
As Poly already pointed out, some people do terrible things to children. Sometimes they are homosexual, sometimes they are heterosexual. Sometimes, too, they are white or black. As I mentioned above, a woman locally killed her sons. This was a mother who did this. And I would be willing to bet that you did not read or hear a thing about it. Hell, nobody outside of the community would have heard of the AK case if talk radio hadn’t made it such an issue. IMHO, of course.
Waste
Flick Lives!
Waste: I live near CLeveland Ohio. My parents never reported it but “handled” it themselves. You are right when you say the heteros commit crimes like that too. Too many people try to use an argument to say all gays are like that. Let me tell ya, not true! Still the stats show that gay men are WAY more promiscious than gay women. I think this is because of their nature as men, NOT because they are gay.
As to the lobbyist thing? Read Fulmento’s book, it was chilling! I hope I am clear enough that all gays are NOT subversive but the ones that are? WooHoo! They are ruining it for their “people” by running are saying things like, “We will sodomize your sons, blah blah blah”. If I was gay I’d be on top of those people in a minute! Oops, I mean, I’d stop them from making it look like we are ALL like them, we ain’t!
HUGS 
Ken
Oh, and the funny thing was, it happened on Dennison Ave! if you are reading this Phil. LOL
"Males are more aggressive than females and THIS includes homosexual men. MEN cause wars, MEN rape, MEN have bathhouse sex in ways that are so repugnant and so vile I cannot believe it. "
MANKIND causes wars. I reject your conjecture that men are the cause of all aggression. Margaret Thatcher was a conservative Hawk. Having a y chromosome is not a gaurantee that you are agressive or bellicose. There are many agressive women, and many passive men. I don’t think that this prejudice is any less ugly than any other.
And if you think men rule the world…well, you have never been married 
Hey, mister, that’s “Denison Ave.” with one “n”. If it had two, I’d have taken it over as King of All I Survey long ago.
Anyway, I just have two questions for Robbnn:
- Do you like certain genres of art? Can you show me the genetic or hormonal trigger for it?
- Since most homosexuals are raised by straight parents, what conditioning are they undergoing that causes so many to realize as early as adolescence that they are attracted to their own gender?
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
Mr.Zambezi: Well here we are on opposite sides of the fence. Do you feel like post sitting?
I do not think that I have shown unwarranted prejudice here. You have brought up some very good points! You always do, I might add, but this time I won’t ;).
I think what I believe here is the result of evidence that is recorded and verifiable. How many instances of “battered” men are there? How many woman like violent activities, boxing, football, play war when they are growing up? Science has shown us that testosterone makes people aggressive and increases sex drive. Do you deny that? If you do please produce the findings that back up your claim.
I know there are exceptions to every rule but if there where not general facts about general things it would be hard to “conceptualize” about anything.
Good post, and I STILL think you are all the good things I said before!
Ken
So Phaedrus, would you still characterize the President as being “fag-loving” as you have in the past? Or was that an aspect of a previously adopted and now discarded persona?
-andros-
Phil, oops, faux pas, mea culpa. Forgiven?
on the OP.
I hate Homophobic Hatred…
or perhaps hate is too strong a word.
Peace.
† Jon †
Phillipians 4:13
No, andros, I admit with shame that I was shamming. I cannot say I am not disappointed in William Jefferson Clinton, and I am sure his wife would say the same. I thought the man was gonna be Jack, he wasn’t for me. I thought is was gonna be Camelot, it wasn’t. While his sex life many have nothing to do with how he runs the country I would have preferred that he had sex somewhere outside the Oval office. I can still see Jack in that immemorial photo, and it saddens me that the room had that done in it.
So I was really a jerk, andros, and if I haven’t made it clear to you, I’m sorry, I came to care about many here and THAT includes you. I just thought (mistakenly) that I could have people treat me nasty and I wouldn’t care for them, I forgot that I was still me, even if they didn’t know it.
First of all, this is my first post on the boards. Be gentle. I’m a hetrosexual 20 year old woman from Vermont, the first state in the union to ban slavery, and recently the first state in the union to make same-sex unions legal. And you know why? Because Vermonters are not threatened by who others choose to love. We don’t care. Hate mongers had to be bused in from Kentucky to protest in front of the state house, because while this is a Christian, New England state, we don’t have that kind of hate in us.
As for the original question: the reason why it is assumed that the Bible says being gay is wrong, is a passage in Leviticus. I don’t have a bible on me at the moment, but to paraphrase: “A man shall not lie with another man…” and goes on to say it’s wrong, yada yada yada. While the Pat Buchanons of the world have taken that literally (and conviently forgot Jesus’s words on love the sinner, hate the sin…) Biblical scholars will tell you one interpretation is good ole’ Leviticus was saying it is a sin to have sex when the possibility of conception is not there. That passage is why the Catholic church is against birth control. Yet you don’t see these bible thumpers hanging convinence store clerks who sell condoms up on fence posts after beating them nearly to death: because it is easier to accept hetrosexual, birth-controlled sex as morally correct than it is to accept to accept two people of the same gender who are in love.
I am not trying to bring birth control into all this, merely trying to make a point. The hypocrocy at work here is amazing. It is not OK to be gay, but we will ignore that the passage also says any HETROSEXUAL couple having sex without the possibility of conception is JUST as wrong. Personally, I disagree with the whole thing, but hey, that’s my bag.
I used to be a Christian, until I realised that it wasn’t about Christ’s teachings anymore. It was about people holding the Bible up as a shield so they didn’t have to evolve. If Jesus were alive today, he would not be attacking gays, he would be enraged that Matthew Shephard was killed in his name. Jesus was about love, not hate. And that is what the Bible says.
“‘Come hither, my boy, tell me what thou seest there?’
‘A fool tangled in a religious snare.’” William Blake
Actually, Ken, I was referring to whether or not the story about the young fellow in AK made the media in your area.
And I see that Robbnn has been back. I’m still wondering about the name of the newspaper in your area. Also, I’m wondering about whether or not your local media made a point of reporting on the story of the mother who murdered her sons?
Waste
Flick Lives!
Every study I have seen (no I don’t have a reference here) is that molestation rates by homosexuals are much lower than hetero males. Supposedly this is arrived at from a figure that purports to know how many gay people there are in the total population. While this is can be a dubious number - if anything it is a low estimate of total gays, thus sex crimes perped by gays may even be lower, if anything (by percentage) than these studies purport to arrive at. Sex crimes perped by lesbians aren’t even on the map.
(Why all this centering on male homos - is it that no one feels threatened by women as they have no “cigar”? - or do you really believe that lesbians are less numerous than gay males?)
Why do gay men perp less sex crimes - gay men have a readily available outlet for any fantasy - including 21+ year old men who style themselves “boys” and act as such in a sexual role. Also, gay molesters get their asses kicked, legally literally and figuratively. Seriously, this is why I advocate free access to porn and sexual association for adults - repression leads to unhealthy acting out, silence about incest, and using victims who cannot speak out, for satisfaction. (Note deviant sex behavior among clergy, for example).
In Georgia, the sodomy statute was overturned last year for a man who butt-****** his 11 year old neice - not when it was used against two partnered gay men in the privacy of their house, 10 years ago (the police had an unrelated warrant).
Are gay people better - NO. Just that people will be as bad as we let them. We let hetero males be very very very bad.
Contrast the school teacher who had 2 babies by her teenage student. Yes she seems a little crazy - but put a male in her place and the girl would have been a high school slut plain and simple, maybe we would have asked him to marry him…?
SwimmingRiddles: Welcome
GLWasteful: I don’t read newspapers as a rule and I don’t have tv, so I don’t know.
RobRoy: I believe what you say about the molestation thing with gays, but how do you think it makes me feel to find out it was rare? Special? Not hardly. And if you know of promiscuity or wild sex like the bathhouses in lesbians, I want to see sources for it.
My point is men are men and that definitely includes their hormonal make-up and that affects behavior. If you can show me authoritative sources that contradict what I know from science about the effect of hormones on behavior don’t be shy. Show them.
HUGS
Ken