Homosexual Marriage: Why OSC is against it.

Great Debates
121

Let me see – allowing two people choosing to create a marriage and family to legally do so is “devaluing the family”? Remember that they can have sex, live together, etc., without any such commitment. I want to get a clearer understanding of how, other than your or Card’s or the Family Values Coalition’s naked assertion of the opinion, this devalues the family. I realize I’m asking you to do something that will probably get you some hostile answers – but I really don’t see the connection. Fill in your thinking that leads you to that conclusion, please.

I was six fifty years ago, so allow me to make it 44 years ago rather than 50, when I was 12. And if you grant me that, you’re dead wrong. There was a stronger sense of community at that time – if you lived somewhere, be it a big city neighborhood, a suburb, or a small town or rural area, you knew your neighbors, helped them and were helped by them as circumstances called for it. With increasing mobility and privacy, that tendency has declined.

But people were equally self-indulgent and selfish – IMO slightly more so – then than now. There was significantly less compassion towards the unfortunate and minority members then than now, a far greater tendency towards “success” (in a commercial sense) and a focus on “looking out for Number One” then than now. Individuality was not respected; conformity was. Social elites were rife, from schoolkids to community organizations. Bullies were common, and reflected parental attitudes in their bullying. And churches failed to focus on fundamental principles but rather on “surface” issues, for the main part.

I invoke Eve and any others who care to comment, to back up these observations.

Horse patoot. A child needs love from a caring parent. Ideally it will get role models of each sex. One of the finest jobs of parenting I’ve seen done was by my wife’s best friend from her teen years on, who ditched the alcoholic and abusive father of her two girls and raised them singlehandedly, being both father and mother figure to them. She invoked me, her father, and several other men she knew as male figures in their lives, but predominantly did it all by herself. And those two girls are today: (1) a skilled, committed, and compassionate social worker, who, along with her mother, who went back to college to train for it, and two other people of equal commitment, is changing the entire ambience of what was formerly one of the worst social service agencies in the country into one of the better ones; and (2) a person who recently was named vice president of a bank she started at as a teller and worked her way upwards. I think their mother’s philosophy of holding fast to a dream and then working your way to make that dream a reality is being lived out in their lives.

And, while I agree as a personal view that it’s best for children to have positive role models of both sexes, there’s nothing that mandates that that be a parent. My grandfather and my first grade teacher are two of the most memorable role models in my life – significantly more so than my own father. But what a child needs is someone who combines discipline with affection and guidance in one person – a parent who parents. Far too many kids don’t have that – and your attempt to restrict marriage and childrearing to what you consider the ideal is doing nothing but hurting them. (BTW, what of a gay child? – who’s going to provide a positive role model for him or her? They do exist; threads here are rife with accounts of early life experiences by gay people that make clear the amount of alienation and lack of understanding most of them felt.)

Finally, whatever your social policies may be, what about the freedoms this country has traditionally espoused. How do you and those who agree with you validate your claim to be the people who define what everyone else has to agree to as regards our social institutions? If you don’t believe in convents, should we therefore require the Catholic Church to close them down? If you think divorce is a sin, should we therefore require someone like the former His4Ever to remain in an abusive marriage? Where are the limits on imposing your social policies?

122

I am new to the message boards and I probably shouldn’t pick this as my first topic to debate but I don’t feel anyone has expressed a reason against SSM beyond “it is evil”. The opinions I state are just that my opinions, and I presume to speak for no one other than myself.

I believe all people are born with a propensity towards certain sins. For some people it’s alcoholism, or gossip (which is really one of the worst), or too much stubborn pride, or gluttony, or homosexuality. I am no better than someone who is gay. I would never claim to be.

I am against SSM because I cannot condone behavior that will lead someone down the wrong path. If I had a friend who was an alcoholic I would be against him becoming a bartender. I think the problem in our society is selfishness. People are too concerned with their own lives to care about the lives of another. they pass it off as being open-minded when what they mean is they just don’t care about that person. Do I believe homosexuals won’t go to heaven? No, because we are a flawed society and NO ONE is perfect. That is why we have a savior who died for our sins. But just because our sins are covered doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do all in our power to make ourselves the best people we can be on this earth.

I would everyone to make note of phrases like “I believe” and “I think”. These are used because this is my opinion I cannot give you cite material for what is in my heart.

123

You know, that’s a reasonable expression of a personal sentiment – a belief or opinion.

But take it a step further. Explain what you mean by “going down the wrong path” and how it applies. Explain why SSM would in and of itself be an encouragement to sin. What is the meaning of “the best people we can be on this earth” in connection with a particular gay person – take Sol Grundy, who is probably a good example of a gay man trying to lead a moral life. What are your expectations of him, and why are they different than the ones you’d place on, say, Airman Doors, presuming they are?

124

Welcome to the boards.

Opinions can vary from ‘I like blue more than green’ to ‘genocide is good’. Quite a range there!

It is clear from your post that you believe in a God. I don’t myself, but I find it interesting what views of yours follow from that.
You equate homosexuality with alcoholism, pride and gossip and claim they are all sins. This depresses me somewhat.
We know that alcoholism cause health problems. What problems does same sex marriage cause? What evidence do you have?

125

By “going down the wrong path” I mean doing things that are against God’s will. I am not a big fan of using biblical quotes because so often they are used out of context. But here goes:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. romans 1:26-27

This is an example of the bible saying homosexuality is a sin. Just as in James it warns of using your tongue wisely. Or in Ephesians 5:18 warning against drunkeness.

By “the best we can be on this earth” I mean recognizing we are flawed and educating ourselves with the Word to be as much like Jesus as we can. To live my life by his example is all I can do.

No one on this planet knows the full truth, if we did we would be God. All I can do is read his word and live by it as best I can. And, I would be remiss if I did not try to help those I cared about to find his word as well.

As I have said, I am new to the boards so I don’t know the two people you mentioned. So, unfortunatly I can only speak on my general thoughts and not assume about others.

126

How about the stuff in Leviticus?

Chapter 11, verse 12: Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the water, that shall be an abomination unto you.

So is eating oysters not a terrible thing to do?

127

Blue is obviously better than green :slight_smile:

I don’t think something has to be harmful to your health for it to be harmful to your soul. Take gossip, for instance, I have found that when I do partake in this ( I am not perfect) I begin to feel a general negativity towards others. Does this damage my health in anyway? no but it does make me a person I don’t want to be. Just as a child doesn’t understand the rules of his parents I don’t understand God’s rules but I trust in Him.

I will even say I could be WRONG about God’s will. But just because you COULD be wrong doesn’t mean you should believe you ARE wrong. Do you believe you are wrong?

128

I specifically chose New Testament verses because of “old Covenant” “New Covenant” arguments that are probably best done on another board. If I were Jewish I would say, yes, No Red Lobster for you.

129

As a straight, married woman with kids–I am offended by this. So, all Ellen or Rosie needed was a good man, eh? A good fuck?

I do not understand this mindset at all. I do agree with you that the lines are blurring–as they should. Human sexuality exists on a spectrum–as does race.

How does this not now marginalize every single parent out there? Widows, widowers, divorced and adoptives?

I do not understand the point about men not understanding women and lesbians not “getting” men (so, straight women understand men?) Understanding the motivation for my husband’s not asking for directions (to use a commonly attributed “fact” about men) does NOT help me one bit in parenting our children–it may prevent an argument, but that’s about it. IF my husband died tomorrow–Iwould not remarry. According to your statement, I am then failing as a person or I am failing as a parent or as a part of society–I dunno.

I am sorry, Prisoner , but I think you need to rethink some of your convictions. Look around you–the country is made up of nuclear, blended, single parent, gay, adoptive and senior families (where grandma is raising the kids). Many struggle–as ever. Most do the best they can.

Are you sure you are not just harkening back to some vague "better days’ nostalgia? What do you fear in today’s world for the family? What threatens your world?

130

If I weren’t such a nice girl (HA!), I’d point out that James may be indirectly endorsing homosexuality.
But I won’t, because I’m a nice girl. :smiley:

131

Nope. what it says is that they hardened their hearts towards God and were sinners first. After the fact they started “exchanging natural relations”. We must presume then that these were straight folks (although the idea of orientation was unknown then) who went against their natural desires. There’s nothing to suggest that is the sin, but is rather the consequence. For a gay person, homosex is natural, so in fact, it would be exchanging natural relations for a gay man to sleep with a woman.

132

FYI, the American Psychological Association, the world’s largest association of psychologists, has this to say about the question, “Is Homosexuality A Choice?”:

133

you are saying that God has put a double standard on people. That for some people it is bad to have sex with someone of the same gender. For other people, it is perfectly fine. My interpretation of this verse is that because they were not following God they gave over to their propensity to homosexuality. As I put in my first post I believe everyone has a “bent” towards certain sins. For some people it is homosexuality. To me, this verse is saying if you do not follow the lord you will give in to your sinful nature. Just as in Ephesians there is the passage about not giving in to drunkeness.

134

Of course not, because you’re not on the recieving end of it. It’s easy to say he’s against gay marriage, but what about the specific issues I raise? When he says he is against gay marriage, he is saying that he wants us to die alone, that he wants us to lose our homes when our partners die, that he wants us to be forced to testify against the ones we love, because those are some of the core legal protections denied to us due to our inability to marry.

To vote against gay equality is to vote against gay people. It’s to say that gays are less deserving, less human, less dignified than non-gays. That’s bigotry. There’s no way to get around it. He seeks to harm us, to render us unable to live a full and equal life, because of an unchangeable demographic characteristic. You may be okay with that. Decent people are not.

135

Only because we’re discussing the legal differences that are forced upon such pairings by bigotted hatemongers and their tool, the state. In real life, I never hear the term “same-sex” applied to my relationship. My friends use the same terminology to refer to me and my boyfriend as they do to refer to our heterosexual friends and their signifigant others. Why wouldn’t they? Our relationships are fundamentally the same in every way.

136

You have no case to clearly present. You and Card aren’t discussing gay people, you’re discussing a figment of your imagination version of gay people. And when pressed for specifics, you curl up in a ball and refuse to respond.

You constantly claim that my existence somehow harms America’s morality, that my being alive on this earth somehow devalues families, but when pressed for evidence, when pressed to show how, when pressed for LOGIC, you dodge, you vanish, you ignore.

You flail about wildly, appearing to blame gays for school shootings, for divorce rates, for single parent families, and when pressed to make a lick of f----ing sense, you flee, you ignore, you obfuscate.

You don’t have the courage to stand your ground and answer the tough questions.

You also offer nothing positive. Tell me, what do you offer gays and lesbians to make our lives better? How do you think we should redress the undue burden gays and lesbians face at making a go in our bigotted, misbegotten society? Or do you think we should just shut the hell up and crawl back under a rock? Because buster, we’re not going to do that.

By the way: the 1950s sucked. Totally. Completely. The only people who pine for the 1950s are straight white men, who wish they still ruled the world entire, and idiots who think that what they see on Nick at Nite was true.

Yes, you were running your mouth off about something you have no blessed clue about. You’re also doing that when you prattle aimlessly about gays. And women, whom judging by other threads you also overwhelmingly hate. Gay bashers are often mysogynists.

137

And that IS GAYBASHING.

How does my relationship devalue family? Specifically. Give me some god damn examples of how my forming a family (yes, even two people sans brats is still family) witht he person I love in any way harms your family?

How do I harm my neighbors by being with the person I love?

How do I harm their kids?

Where is this devaluation occuring? Show us statistics that can measure it.

Either SHOW EVIDENCE that my relationship is devaluing families or STOP BELITTLING AND ATTACKING IT.

Actually, I’ say that bigots like you are the full, complete sum of everything that is wrong with society. People like you opposed letting whites marry blacks, opposed letting women vote, letting women work, letting blacks eat at the same counters as whites.

I’d say it appears to be about the same. One thing society is today is MORE FREE than it was 50 years ago. Women are more free, blacks are more free, gays are more free. And freedom is always and totally inherently good.

If more people are indulgent today than before, it’s because economically more people have the ability to indulge than did before. That’s a sign of progress. In the Bad Old Days, money was the purview of white males. Everyone else was either not really a person, or had to toil day and night. Not so anymore. The spread of leisure and, yes, indulgence, reflects the broadening of American prosperity.

You also think the wimmin folk should shut up, go home, start cooking and pop out babies.

Says who? Children are exposed to role models of both genders throughout their lives. Frankly, teachers and school leaders spend more time with kids than parents do during the years when most intellectual formation occurs. Unless a child is raised in a vacuum, they will have a plethora of models and examples of both genders, both from within their families and in society at large. Normalized for economic considerations, the children of single parents do no demonstrably worse in life than those raised by both.

First of all, plenty of men understand women just fine. You are again falling back on discredited, 1950s-esque nonsense.

Second, why “even gay men”? Why are you implying that gay men would be expected to understand women better than straight men? Are you linking homosexuality to femininity? If so, you’re even more loathsomely ignorant about homosexuality than I thought.

138

Actually, I believe that’s what you’re saying. God has made most people straight, and allowed them to find love, passion, and life-long companionship. Others he has made gay, and then punishes them for seeking exactly what 90% of the rest of planet take for granted.

And yet, when I’m with my boyfriend, I feel happier. I feel calmer. I’m more forgiving of faults in others. If me being gay is damaging my soul, where is the evidence of this? Shouldn’t there be some sign of this corruption, if only within myself? Why do I feel like a better person when I’m with him?

139

You call my love a sin, when it is no different than yours.

You call the core of my being a sin. You call the most important thing about me a sin. You call the defining core of who I am a sin. You would have me deny who I was made to be, to deny myself, to deny my life, to effectively kill myself, even though I would still breathe.

You hate me. You are a bigot. Wrap it up in all the worthless God talk you want, but there’s no way around that fact.

You mean the path to my happiness? To self-acceptance? To freedom from depression and the crushing pain of living a lie?

Excuse me? How does my being gay effect anyone but me? How does it harm anyone? Show me specific examples. Make it very clear. And no “eternal life” mumbojumbo, show substantive harm here and now, in the only world that we can measure in facts not theories and opinion.

140

The worst sort of bigots in the world are those who mistake their bigotry for love.