Homosexual Marriage: Why OSC is against it.

[spectrum]

@VanityFare

By “going down the wrong path” I mean doing things that are against God’s will.

Who are you to claim to know God’s will better than I do? Better than the priest at my church (he’s also gay)? You’re no one. You don’t understand the first thing about homosexuality, and with your mind closed by bigotry and clogged with meaninless, rote versus from an old book, you never will.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. romans 1:26-27

This is an example of the bible saying homosexuality is a sin.

There’s no reason to equate that quote from that woman-hating, self-loathing creep Paul with general homosexuality. It’s vague. What indecent acts? It doesn’t in any way resemble my life or my reality. There is nothing indecent about how I live, there is nothing indecent about who I love.

To live my life by his example is all I can do.

Given that you’re walking around judging me when you don’t know the first thing about me or people like me, I’d say you’re doing a pretty terrible job at evoking Jesus at all.

[Polycarp]

@VanityFare

By “going down the wrong path” I mean doing things that are against God’s will. I am not a big fan of using biblical quotes because so often they are used out of context. But here goes:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. romans 1:26-27

This is an example of the bible saying homosexuality is a sin. Just as in James it warns of using your tongue wisely. Or in Ephesians 5:18 warning against drunkeness.

Ah. Having recognized the problem in your pre-quote paragraph, you proceed to do it. Take a good modern translation of Romans – or KJV or NIV if you can keep straight Paul’s logic in their more literal rendering – and follow what he’s saying. He’s talking to a bunch of Christians in pagan Rome about sin and its consequences. As Homebrew noted, that passage you quoted follows on the turning from God and hardening of their hearts by the people he’s talking about – who were the epicurean types out for pleasure whom those Roman Christians could see all around them. Paul wrote within a few years of Petronius Arbiter, who chronicled exactly what Paul is talking about. The folks of Romans 1:26-28 are not the gay people of today – they’re the First Century’s ennui-laden sophisticates, turning to gay sex for new kicks because the things they’ve been doing have lost their thrill. And then he goes on to enumerate the other offenses chargeable against them – which do not, in general, characterize gay people in particular. Then he springs the indictment as being against all of us in the beginning of Romans 2.

By “the best we can be on this earth” I mean recognizing we are flawed and educating ourselves with the Word to be as much like Jesus as we can. To live my life by his example is all I can do.

Which is, I think, all that can be asked of you. But Jesus neither condemned sin nor condoned it – he forgave it. He was compassionate toward others, save for those who insisted that they were justified before God and able to judge the sins of others – on whom He came down like a duck on a June bug.

Now, try distancing yourself from the entire SSM/homosexuality argument and read your post as a third party who believes that living after Jesus’s model is what we’re called to do – and see if what you had to say doesn’t sound much more like the Pharisees’ attitude. Yeah, you claim to be “a sinner whose sins are ‘covered’ by His Atonement” – but guess what: your language is that of someone self-righteous and prepared to judge. And we do have His word on it: with the measure you judge by, you too will be judged. If the town decided your marriage was not valid and could not be made valid (presuming you’re married) and that any expression of love or affection you made was ipso facto sinful, how would you feel? That which you would not want done unto yourself, do not do that unto others.

No one on this planet knows the full truth, if we did we would be God. All I can do is read his word and live by it as best I can. And, I would be remiss if I did not try to help those I cared about to find his word as well.

Me too. But Bibles don’t have handles – there’s no commandment saying, “Thou shalt find sinners, and having found them, bash them about the temples with My Word.” What does Jesus tell us to do, and how important does He make it?

As I have said, I am new to the boards so I don’t know the two people you mentioned. So, unfortunatly I can only speak on my general thoughts and not assume about others.

They’ve posted to this thread. And, like the girl in the Tom Petty song, they love Jesus and their boyfriends too.

[VanityFare]

Who are you to claim to know God’s will better than I do? Better than the priest at my church (he’s also gay)? You’re no one. You don’t understand the first thing about homosexuality, and with your mind closed by bigotry and clogged with meaninless, rote versus from an old book, you never will.

I have stated several times that I don’t believe I know God Better than anyone.

There’s no reason to equate that quote from that woman-hating, self-loathing creep Paul with general homosexuality. It’s vague. What indecent acts? It doesn’t in any way resemble my life or my reality. There is nothing indecent about how I live, there is nothing indecent about who I love.

Given that you’re walking around judging me when you don’t know the first thing about me or people like me, I’d say you’re doing a pretty terrible job at evoking Jesus at all.

I am only judging you in as much as I am judging myself. I am not condemning you in any way. I don’t know you. It seems that you are a very angry person. this might not be true but is the person you are portraying yourself to be.

The fact that you say that your sexual orientation is the essence of your soul saddens me. It says to me that sexuality is the center of your universe. There is more to you than your sexuality.

You ask me to give you “facts” and “proof”. But the whole reason debates like these are neverending is because there is no earthly proof to what is right and wrong. You cannot measure morality on a human scale.

You believe that since your relationship with your boyfriend makes you happy it is moral. I believe that just because something makes you happy doesn’t mean i t is right. Believing in the word of God makes me happy but apparently you think I am wrong. So, what are we to do? Should only your side be happy? Should only my side be happy? Should we all be miserable?

I for one am going to be as happy as I can because all I am doing here is expressing my beliefs. If you are not happy with me I will go on because there is more to me than this.

[robertliguori]

Just a quick aside to those who are against the legal institution of same-sex marriage on religious grounds: Take a look at the First Amendment to the constitution, and compare it to the First Commandment. When I do this, I can’t help but notice that the behavior prohibitied in the first Commandment (having other gods before Him) is specifically and expressly permitted by the First Amendment.

So, where’s all the campaigning for the removal of the First Amendment, to save our poor benighted heathenistic souls? It says so in the Bible, so it should be the law, right?

[prisoner6655321]

Ok. Enough of the personal attacks and accusations of gay bashing and bigotry, especially to a new member of the boards. Are you trying to scare VanityFare away? I point you here as a reminder. SDMB is unique that it has a pit. We are very lucky. Use it.

I’m not personally attacking any of you. I am only defending myself and my right to vote how I feel. I’m not against any of you, but yes, I agree with VanityFare that homosexuality is a sin.

[prisoner6655321]

I wonder how Jesus would have voted.

[VanityFare]

@Polycarp

Ah. Having recognized the problem in your pre-quote paragraph, you proceed to do it. Take a good modern translation of Romans – or KJV or NIV if you can keep straight Paul’s logic in their more literal rendering – and follow what he’s saying. He’s talking to a bunch of Christians in pagan Rome about sin and its consequences. As Homebrew noted, that passage you quoted follows on the turning from God and hardening of their hearts by the people he’s talking about – who were the epicurean types out for pleasure whom those Roman Christians could see all around them. Paul wrote within a few years of Petronius Arbiter, who chronicled exactly what Paul is talking about. The folks of Romans 1:26-28 are not the gay people of today – they’re the First Century’s ennui-laden sophisticates, turning to gay sex for new kicks because the things they’ve been doing have lost their thrill. And then he goes on to enumerate the other offenses chargeable against them – which do not, in general, characterize gay people in particular. Then he springs the indictment as being against all of us in the beginning of Romans 2.

Which is, I think, all that can be asked of you. But Jesus neither condemned sin nor condoned it – he forgave it. He was compassionate toward others, save for those who insisted that they were justified before God and able to judge the sins of others – on whom He came down like a duck on a June bug.

Now, try distancing yourself from the entire SSM/homosexuality argument and read your post as a third party who believes that living after Jesus’s model is what we’re called to do – and see if what you had to say doesn’t sound much more like the Pharisees’ attitude. Yeah, you claim to be “a sinner whose sins are ‘covered’ by His Atonement” – but guess what: your language is that of someone self-righteous and prepared to judge. And we do have His word on it: with the measure you judge by, you too will be judged. If the town decided your marriage was not valid and could not be made valid (presuming you’re married) and that any expression of love or affection you made was ipso facto sinful, how would you feel? That which you would not want done unto yourself, do not do that unto others.

Me too. But Bibles don’t have handles – there’s no commandment saying, “Thou shalt find sinners, and having found them, bash them about the temples with My Word.” What does Jesus tell us to do, and how important does He make it?

They’ve posted to this thread. And, like the girl in the Tom Petty song, they love Jesus and their boyfriends too.

I do see your point. I guess what I’m trying to do is explain why I am against SSM. I couldn’t vote for it because I couldn’t vote for something I interpret as wrong. That is why I would vote against it.

If suddenly the world turned on its head and heterosexuality was viewed as wrong and homosexuality as the way to be. I would be hurt and confused but I wouldn’t let those people control my happiness. But, I do understand your point.

As for the posters you mentioned. . .He does not expect us to be perfect, only to strive towards him. Their sins are no greater than any of mine. I just think they have different sins than I do.

As far as not being judgemental. . .I think their is a difference between judging and informing. If my friend was doing something she would regret later I would feel obligated to tell her how I felt. What she did with that information would be up to her. She would still be my friend and I would not love her any less if she made choices opposed to my own.

This may sound like semantics but I hope I am explaining myself clearly.

P.S. Loved the “duck on a june bug” comment

[amphibian]

I couldn’t vote for it because I couldn’t vote for something I interpret as wrong. That is why I would vote against it

Eh? mistyped that?

As for the posters you mentioned. . .He does not expect us to be perfect, only to strive towards him. Their sins are no greater than any of mine. I just think they have different sins than I do.

But the difference is, most of them I assume are mentally stable and don’t seek forgiveness for the “sin” they’re committing, and don’t regard it as such.

You also offer nothing positive. Tell me, what do you offer gays and lesbians to make our lives better

This reminds me of a post on another forum which pointed out that families really ARE being torn apart in today’s society - because homophobia still exists so much, and gay children are homeless because of it, or, relatives aren’t speaking because of it.

[spectrum]

@VanityFare

I have stated several times that I don’t believe I know God Better than anyone.

Yet you presume to call my love sinful based on nothing more than YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Bible. Many scholars far more learned than you disagree that the Bible condemns what we would today call homosexuality.

I am only judging you in as much as I am judging myself.

You are no one to judge me in any capacity, in any way. You know nothing about homosexuality, nothing about homosexuals, nothing about anything pertinent to this discussion.

It seems that you are a very angry person. this might not be true but is the person you are portraying yourself to be.

Of course I’m angry. Be a gay person in this filthy bigotted nation, and you’d be angry, too. Every day I am surrounded by people who hate me for being gay, who would vote in an instant to have me be rendered a second class citizen. Being gay is a constant source of stress and anxiety, for you’re really not safe in this country anymore. That’s why no one would choose to be gay. It’s not a choice and never a choice.

The fact that you say that your sexual orientation is the essence of your soul saddens me.

There are core defining traits which determine all others. Sexuality is one of them. It determines who you love and how you love them, and thus is immeasurable in its influence on all your interpersonal relationships. Heterosexuals don’t recognize this because society doesn’t require them to. Since it’s not something that makes you different, makes you hated, makes you an outsider, you take no account of it. For you its just a presumption. Gays don’t have that luxury.

You ask me to give you “facts” and “proof”. But the whole reason debates like these are neverending is because there is no earthly proof to what is right and wrong. You cannot measure morality on a human scale.

You absolutely can. Harm is bad. If you want to assert that my homosexuality is immoral, that it is bad, then you must show that it is harming me. If you want to call it a danger to society, you must show how it is impacting society.

You believe that since your relationship with your boyfriend makes you happy it is moral.

What a grossly patronizing simplification. I believe my relationship with my boyfriend is moral because it is no different than any heterosexual relationship, and heterosexual relationships are moral. Unless you can show how it is causing harm, I can’t see how it can possiblly be immoral. There can be no immorality where there is not harm.

Believing in the word of God makes me happy but apparently you think I am wrong.

Ah, yes, clearly you “believe in the word of God.” Except, you don’t. You believe in YOUR INTERPRETATION of the word of God, an interpretation I clearly think is clearly wrong.

Should only your side be happy?

Why would me being able to enter into a government-codified contract to build my life with the person I love, granting me rights to make medical decisions, protection from forced testimony, the ability to be legally recognized as his family, make you unhappy?

How the hell is it your business in any way?

How does it effect you at all?

[Homebrew]

@VanityFare

I do see your point. I guess what I’m trying to do is explain why I am against SSM. I couldn’t vote for it because I couldn’t vote for something I interpret as wrong. That is why I would vote against it.

What about the other things which many Christians believe are immoral. Would you vote to outlaw everything you consider immoral? Do you really want to live in a theocracy? I’m sure there’s something you enjoy that someone else finds sinful. Should we outlaw everything someone finds wrong? Unless you would vote to outlaw everything you find wrong, then you’re singling this out as especially bad and are indeed being judgemental. Should gluttony be illegal? What about pride? What about lying?

As far as not being judgemental. . .I think their is a difference between judging and informing.

How about you get around to living you life as you see fit and letting others do the same? If same-sex marriages are legalized, you won’t be required to have one. You can keep thinking they’re wrong; but what gives you the right to keep others who don’t share your views from following the dictates of their morals? By preventing the legalization of SSM, you choose to further oppression.

[amphibian]

@amphibian

Eh? mistyped that?

forget that, I misread it.

[spectrum]

@VanityFare

I do see your point. I guess what I’m trying to do is explain why I am against SSM. I couldn’t vote for it because I couldn’t vote for something I interpret as wrong. That is why I would vote against it.

When you vote AGAINST equality for gays and lesbians, here’s what you’re actually voting FOR:

• If my boyfriend goes into the hospital, I cannot visit him in intensive care. I cannot make medical decisions for him. Were he in criticial condition and if he slipped away, he would DIE ALONE because I could not be there to hold his hand, to comfort him, to be with him. Because we’re not family. And you support this.

• If my boyfriend and I purchase a home together, and he dies, I will be forced to pay inheritance tax on his half of the house. I would probably have to sell the house, and leave my home, compounding my grief with misery. Because we’re not married. And you support this.

• If my boyfriend and I wish to buy a home, we could not combine our credit ratings together to get a better deal or a larger loan. Because we’re not married. And you support this.

• If my boyfriend were accused of a crime, I could be forced to testify against him. Because we’re not married. And you support this.

• My boyfriend and I can be barred from purchasing a home in many areas of this country where laws do not allow non-family members to cohabitate. And you support this.

• If my boyfriend dies and leaves me his estate, his evil family could contest his will, and likely take our belongings away from me, because the courts almost always side with family. And we’re not family. And you support this.

You might say “you can do a lot of that through power of attorney and legal arrangements,” but that’s simply not a reasonable solution. First, hospitals are famous for ignoring gay partner powers of attorney, particularly religious hospitals. Second, legal documents can be annulled by bigoted judges (Bush is appointing scores of them) and challenged by my boyfriend’s evil family. Third, some states outright refuse to recognize legal arrangements of any sort between gay partners (specifically the bigot state of Virginia). Fourth, no legal agreement can give us protection from forced testimony or make us family for the purpose of hospital visits and the like. Fifth, these sorts of agreements cost thousands upon thousands to establish – an undue burden to place upon gays. And you support this.

For you it’s an abstract. For me its a crushing burden that constantly threatens my relationship with the only person in the world who I truly care about.

Justify it. Justify why I don’t deserve the rights a married couple as in the situations listed above. Justify how me being able to live my life fully with the person I love would harm the nation, the family, the world, or even just me. Put up or shut up.

But I know you won’t. You people always run when the harsh light of reality is shone upon the consequences of your convictions.

[quote]
As far as not being judgemental. . .I think their is a difference between judging and informing.[/quote[

You’re actually so arrogant as to think you’re informing us of anything here? What, we’ve never heard the fundie bigot Christian line of thought before you swooped in to show us the light?

[spectrum]

@amphibian

This reminds me of a post on another forum which pointed out that families really ARE being torn apart in today’s society - because homophobia still exists so much, and gay children are homeless because of it, or, relatives aren’t speaking because of it.

I generally see my parents twice a year, at Christmas and Thanskgiving, ever since they delcared me a “pervert” who was an embarrsment to the family. I did not go home for Christmas this year because I wouldn’t be allowed to take my boyfriend, and he does not speak to his Southern Baptist family anymore, and I wasn’t going to leave him alone on the holidays.

They’re Christians. You can tell them by their love.

[VanityFare]

What about the other things which many Christians believe are immoral. Would you vote to outlaw everything you consider immoral? Do you really want to live in a theocracy? I’m sure there’s something you enjoy that someone else finds sinful. Should we outlaw everything someone finds wrong? Unless you would vote to outlaw everything you find wrong, then you’re singling this out as especially bad and are indeed being judgemental. Should gluttony be illegal? What about pride? What about lying?

If things I believe are wrong are up for a vote, obviously I’m going to vote for what I believe is right. If the majority of the people in this country disagree with me, then so be it. I’m fine with that. I love the fact that we have a right to vote in this country. I have my legal opportunity to express my opinion as do you.

How about you get around to living you life as you see fit and letting others do the same? If same-sex marriages are legalized, you won’t be required to have one. You can keep thinking they’re wrong; but what gives you the right to keep others who don’t share your views from following the dictates of their morals? By preventing the legalization of SSM, you choose to further oppression

If same sex marriages were legalized because a majority of Americans wanted it that way. You wouldn’t see me protesting the decision. Like I said in a previous post–I will state my opinion and what others want to do with that information is completely up to them.

[Miller]

@VanityFare

You believe that since your relationship with your boyfriend makes you happy it is moral. I believe that just because something makes you happy doesn’t mean i t is right. Believing in the word of God makes me happy but apparently you think I am wrong. So, what are we to do? Should only your side be happy? Should only my side be happy? Should we all be miserable?

The difference between you and me is, while I don’t believe in the things that make you happy, I am not acting in any way to prevent you from practicing them. I do not try to prevent you from attending church, saying prayers, or expressing your faith in public.

You on, the other hand, are actively trying to impede my happiness. You do this every time you vote against SSM. Why are you doing this? I’m not trying to hurt you. I’m not trying to restrict your freedoms in any way. Why can’t you pay me the same, simple courtesy? If your beliefs prevent you from supporting SSM, could you at least abstain from voting on the issue? Do your beliefs require you to inflict pain on people who disagree with you? Because make no mistake, that is precisely what you do when you support anti-SSM legislation. In the wake of the last elections, for the first time in my life, I honestly wished I did not live in America. Why should I want to live in a place where I am so manifestly unwelcome? SSM doesn’t hurt you. And you have already admitted that you don’t know God’s will any better than anyone else. So why are you attempting to control my life based on your own incomplete understanding of what God wants? If my life is offensive to God, than that is between me and him. Your intervention is neither required not desired.

You ask me to give you “facts” and “proof”. But the whole reason debates like these are neverending is because there is no earthly proof to what is right and wrong. You cannot measure morality on a human scale.

Would it be a reasonable inference from this statement that atheists cannot be moral?

[VanityFare]

@Miller

The difference between you and me is, while I don’t believe in the things that make you happy, I am not acting in any way to prevent you from practicing them. I do not try to prevent you from attending church, saying prayers, or expressing your faith in public.

You on, the other hand, are actively trying to impede my happiness. You do this every time you vote against SSM. Why are you doing this? I’m not trying to hurt you. I’m not trying to restrict your freedoms in any way. Why can’t you pay me the same, simple courtesy? If your beliefs prevent you from supporting SSM, could you at least abstain from voting on the issue? Do your beliefs require you to inflict pain on people who disagree with you? Because make no mistake, that is precisely what you do when you support anti-SSM legislation. In the wake of the last elections, for the first time in my life, I honestly wished I did not live in America. Why should I want to live in a place where I am so manifestly unwelcome? SSM doesn’t hurt you. And you have already admitted that you don’t know God’s will any better than anyone else. So why are you attempting to control my life based on your own incomplete understanding of what God wants? If my life is offensive to God, than that is between me and him. Your intervention is neither required not desired.

Would it be a reasonable inference from this statement that atheists cannot be moral?

There can be moral atheists. But, like I said, the reasons these debates will never stop is because there is no earthly standard. All people beliave they are the “right” side of an issue, otherwise they would switch sides, as it were. I’ll go back to what I have said before. Just because I think I COULD be wrong doesn’t mean I believe I AM wrong.

If abortion was up for a vote and I asked you to abstain from voting because I thought it hurt unborn children, would you? I DO NOT want to start a debate on abortion this is just an example

[RickJay]

@VanityFare

If things I believe are wrong are up for a vote, obviously I’m going to vote for what I believe is right. If the majority of the people in this country disagree with me, then so be it. I’m fine with that. I love the fact that we have a right to vote in this country. I have my legal opportunity to express my opinion as do you.

But I simply don’t believe that you really think that. Let me put it to you this way:

If I were to ask you to sign a petition calling for legislation that would make it illegal, punishable by imprisonment, to attend services in a Jewish synagogue, would you sign that petition? I’m assuming you aren’t Jewish, so it’s sinful in your eyes to not be a Christian. So would you sign that petition?

What if I were to ask you to sign a petition calling for legislation that would amend the Constitution to eliminate the First Amendment, and make it legally required for all people to attend a church of your specific denomination? Again, NOt doing so is sinful in your eyes. So should it be law?

[prisoner6655321]

@spectrum

You absolutely can. Harm is bad.

But we cannot agreed upon what harm means. I think that removing a life from the womb before it can live in our environment is harmful. Many (most?) at SDMB believe that only allowing the choice that it is a life is harmful. We are constantly at odds about what we feel what is harmful. Conservatives feel certain things are harmful. And liberals think other things are harmful. It never ends.

If you want to assert that my homosexuality is immoral, that it is bad, then you must show that it is harming me. If you want to call it a danger to society, you must show how it is impacting society.

Why? We don’t have to prove anything to vote the way we do. We don’t have to prove anything to agree to disagree. And that’s what this argument is turning towards.

[eleanorigby]

@VanityFare

I do see your point. I guess what I’m trying to do is explain why I am against SSM. I couldn’t vote for it because I couldn’t vote for something I interpret as wrong. That is why I would vote against it.

If suddenly the world turned on its head and heterosexuality was viewed as wrong and homosexuality as the way to be. ** I would be hurt and confused but I wouldn’t let those people control my happiness.**

Well, you don’t understand, b/c YOU are trying to control his happiness–just like you wouldn’t want yours to be. I am interpreting the above to mean that you would go with the predominant sexual orientation in such a world, and be gay. Or would you remain celibate–it’s not much to ask, really [sarcasm]…unless, the Gay World posited by Polycarp included an emphasis on homosexuality in the Bible. Elucidate, please.

[QUOTE}As for the posters you mentioned. . .He does not expect us to be perfect, only to strive towards him. Their sins are no greater than any of mine. I just think they have different sins than I do.

As far as not being judgemental. I think their is a difference between judging and informing. [/QUOTE]

Baloney and bullshit. Jesus does not teach to strive to be like him–your church does that. He preached that you are to love your neighbor (including the gay ones) like yourself and to love your God with all your heart, soul and mind.

There is plenty of judging in your posts. I don’t care that you are as big a sinner here as the rest of us–a level moral playing field is assumed here. You say you are not perfect (thanks for the update)–and you say you gossip. Gossiping is between you and the Lord and your conscience. NOBODY is trying to legislate your right to sin this way–you are free to gossip away and only answer to God and yourself (and your poor hapless victims). But what if gossip was legislated against? What if gossip was a core way you defined yourself?

Never mind–the analogy is stupid, b/c UNLIKE homosexuality, gossip actually destroys other people.

But do you see where I am trying to go with this? I, like Spectrum would like some concrete data on how the gay community hurts marriage and families. And ITA with the point of calling those teens perverts and throwing them out of the house is MORE destructive to marriage and family than anything that a gay person could do.

[Polycarp]

BTW, to Vanity Fare:

I’m taking Prisoner’s comment seriously.

We do play rough here – support what you say, make your case pretty clear, don’t put forth vague “opinions” unsupported by facts, and all that. But we do play by rules – it’s something like a rough-and-tumble rugby game of the mind.

And, as you’ve I hope noticed, I’m committed to doing what our Lord commands – not, necessarily, what Pastor Pastyface happens to think that He commands. A big piece of that to me is to show love and compassion to those who are ostracized by their society, or much of it – including our gay brothers and sisters.

And to me that takes precedence over any idea that I ought to get my beliefs written into law so that everybody ought to comply with them. (Besides, you probably wouldn’t like the Episcopal Church.)