Homosexuality and lobsters - understanding the OT

This section from an article by Paul Marston of the University of Central Lancashire addresses issues that commonly crop up on SDMB, including homosexuality, masturbation, and diet (especially shellfish). A link is given to the article for those with an interest in the subject.

Lev 18:22 & 20:13: The OT Law

There is no technical term for homosexual acts in Hebrew, so Lev 18:22 reads: “With a male you shall not lie (shakav) the lyings of a woman, it is an abomination (toevah).” The word shakav literally means to lie, but like the English “sleep with” to “lie with” means to have sex. A woman can “lie with” a man (Gen 19:32, 33, 35) or a man “lie with” a woman (Gen 30:16, 34:2). No particular form or kind of sexual intercourse (eg anal intercourse) is implied, no implication of active or passive roles in sexual terms; it is the most general term for “have sex” one could imagine. Rabbinic scholars made “lie with a male” into a noun. In the Greek OT (LXX) it is faithfully translated in Lev 18 and 20 as “bed a male” by the Greek words arsen (male) and koite (bed), so in 20:13 it reads as: arsenoskoiton. In Numbers 31:18 and Judges 21:11-12 women who have not known lying with men (koiton arsenos) just means “virgins”, not the non-promiscuous or those who have avoided some particular form of sex.

One gay approach has been to suggest that it refers only to certain kinds of homosexual practice, perhaps anal intercourse or the forcible rape of the vanquished by their conqueror. This is not plausible because shakav is so general a term, and the Greek LXX is just as general.

The pro-gay Scroggs suggests that the original context may have been “cultic heterosexual prostitution”, but he later admits: “…the laws in Leviticus are unequivocally opposed to male homosexual activity.” [Scroggs (1983) p.99] The pro-gay Wink likewise accepts that the Leviticus verses “unequivocally condemn homosexual behavior” [Wink (1999) p. 34]. This is really undeniable. The word is the most general one could imagine for gay-sex, and attempts to restrict it to special types are unrealistic.

But Scroggs rightly points out that we now ignore many Levitical laws, so why keep this one? Granted that homosexual acts of all kinds are forbidden, is this for moral or ritualistic reasons or can we indeed distinguish these in Leviticus?

The word “abomination” does often refer to idolatrous practice, but also to incest and sex with the neighbour’s wife (in Lev 18:26), and swindling (Deut 25:16). Lev 18:27 says “for these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled…” The inhabitants of the land were never condemned, eg, for not following the Jewish dietary laws, and in places it indicates clearly that these were not thought to apply to them. Thus throughout Deut 14 God says of dietary laws “… is unclean for you”(14:7, 14:10). Then in 14:21 they are forbidden to eat anything which dies of itself but “you may give it to the foreigner within your gates that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner; for you are a holy people to the Lord your God…” The writer is surely here signalling that this is something specific to Israel – God has made these foods an “abomination” to them as some kind of lesson. Clearly, had the diet concerned any genuine moral issue the writer would hardly have suggested that it was fine to pass such food on – as though God said “You mustn’t commit adultery, incest or idolatry, but it is fine for the foreigners to do so…”

The previous inhabitants of the Land were nowhere condemned for failure to perform rituals, but they were condemned for the list of things in Lev 18. Homosexual acts were regarded as sins for Gentiles as well as Jews. They were not, of course, regarded as particularly “special” or heinous sins as homophobics make out – but they were considered sinful.

One gay Christian approach is to admit that the anti-same-sex-act laws were general, but suggest that they were linked to scientifically mistaken ideas of procreation; thus eg Wink (1999) p. 34:

The Hebrew prescientific understanding was that male semen contained the whole of nascent life. With no knowledge of eggs and ovulation it was assumed that the woman provided only the incubation space. Hence the spilling of semen for any nonprocreative purpose – in coitus interruptus (Gen 38:1-11).

No evidence is produced for such amazing allegations, he does not explain why (if it were true) masturbation is never forbidden in the law (Gen 38 concerns a specific case of deceit and disobedience), nor how the “seed of the woman” (Gen 3:15) could crush the serpent if only males produce seed. This illustrates the kinds of odd argument found, but we cannot pursue them all.

The Leviticus 18 and 20 verses, then, occur in a list of the sins of the Canaanites, some of which concern their cultic worship but some of which concern personal sexual morality. The ban on a “male lying with a male as with a female” is the most general description that could be given on any and all male gay-sex acts. If we reject this as relevant to us today, it is hard to see how any OT statements about sexuality at all could be relevant.

‘Christians, Gays and Gay Christians’: An Examination by Dr. Paul Marston

http://www.fmcuk.org.uk/social%20issues/homosexuality.htm

I think the whole thing can be summed up by a sentence in the last paragraph from your link (bolding mine):

Ahh, well, if you want to use a text to back-up your prejudice and bigotry, make it the Bible! As long as that “book” says discrimination is okey-dokey there’s no need to question it, right? :rolleyes:

P.S.
I’m still trying to find out why you mentioned lobsters in the title as your OP doesn’t mention them.

The Bible holds a special place as a source of authority for many churches (including the Methodist one to which Marston belongs), and it is in this context that he asserts that anyone practising homosexual sex is living a lifestyle that is ‘inconsistent with being a part of the church’. Therein lies the ‘discrimination’ to which you refer.

Lobsters (together with shrimps edibles that are often mentioned on the board) are alluded to when Marston writes that ‘Scroggs rightly points out that we now ignore many Levitical laws, so why keep this one’? Reference is being made to Lev 11:10, where eating what we would now call shellfish is called an abomination.

Been there, done that. See my reply at :

Jesus enumerates few sins, and Gay sex isn’t amoung them. “Do unto others…”

Paul enunerates quite a few more, most of which (Murder, robbery) we can all agree with. He did strongly condemn extramartial sex- and thus also Gay sex- which perhaps twice he also lists. If you follow Paul, Gay sex is no more a sin than fornication or drunkeness. Note that Paul thought that it would be best if every one remained celibate. :dubious: :rolleyes:

Christians believe Jesus gave them a “New Covenant” and thus all the OT sins are no more. Don’t hafta keep kosher, get circumcised, etc etc. Jesus replaces them all basicly with “Do unto others…” and Paul added a few. Thus, if it ain’t a sin in the NT (and it can’t be covered under “Do unto others…”) then it’s not a sin after “Jesus died for Your sins”.

So- Xtians can eat lobster- but fornication is a sin. Gay sex must needs be (by the thinking of the time) fornication. But Gay sex does not seem to be any greater of a sin.

I’m just wondering why Paul gets a say in the matter at all. Is the religion Christianity, or Paulianity? Did Jesus tell Paul those extra rules, or did he just make them up?

Excellent question, and one I have often asked. I suppose one could view Paul’s writings as commentary. While there are some smart things in them, I don’t view them as the wrd of God himself.

You make a good point. But most Xtains accept Paul as being Divinely Inspired. Not I. Of course, I am not sure about Jesus being Divine either, although certainly a great Teacher and man.

Paul was writing letters to different folk in different places (and although all his letters were written at around the same time, that time is nearly 2,000 years in the past). This means that one needs to appreciate that some of the things he wrote are meant to apply to the local situation, and some more broadly.

‘Jesus enumerates few sins, and Gay sex isn’t among them.’

No disagreement there.

‘Paul enunerates quite a few more, most of which (Murder, robbery) we can all agree with. He did strongly condemn extramartial sex- and thus also Gay sex- which perhaps twice he also lists. If you follow Paul, Gay sex is no more a sin than fornication…’

True enough - league tables of sins is difficult to compile, but extra-marital heterosexual sex and homosexual sex might surely be bracketed. (I’m not sure that drunkenness is quite up there, though other sources would suggest lying and cowardice might be.)

‘Note that Paul thought that it would be best if every one remained celibate.’

I think you are referring to 1 Corinthians 7, which deals with marriage. Paul writes as follows in verses 1 and 7:

1 Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.

7 I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

In the first extract, he specifically answers a question that has been raised by some Corinthian men in correspondence. His answer suggests that they were asking whether remaining single was okay for Christians.

In the second extract, he expresses a personal wish, nothing more. So, to write that Paul thinks it best for everyone to remain celibate is really not true.

‘Christians believe Jesus gave them a “New Covenant” and thus all the OT sins are no more.’

Not too many Christians I know believe this. In fact, I’ve never met one who believed this.

‘Don’t hafta keep kosher, get circumcised, etc etc.’

Yes.

‘Jesus replaces them all basically with “Do unto others…”’

No, he didn’t.

‘Paul added a few.’

Not sure that he did. Not really qualified to.

‘Thus, if it ain’t a sin in the NT (and it can’t be covered under “Do unto others…”) then it’s not a sin after “Jesus died for Your sins”.’

I’m not sure that I follow the argumentation here, so perhaps you could clarify and I’ll try to respond.

‘So- Xtians can eat lobster- but fornication is a sin.’

True.

‘Gay sex must needs be (by the thinking of the time) fornication.’

I don’t think this is the case, but…

‘Gay sex does not seem to be any greater of a sin’

That would be true.

Your OP is rather confusing, but you seem to be arguing that there is a Biblical distinction between different kinds of “abominations”: e.g., eating shellfish is proscribed by God as an “abomination” only for the Jewish people, whereas homosexual acts are “abominations” for Jews and non-Jews alike.

Therefore, you seem to be arguing, Christians who condemn homosexual acts but nonetheless eat shellfish or cut their beards or violate other Levitical laws are not really being hypocritical, but are observing a valid distinction between sins that are defined as applying to everyone and those that apply only to the Jews of the Old Testament.

This argument looks pretty shaky to me, though, since there is not always a clear and explicit distinction between what is forbidden only to the people of Israel and what is bad for everybody. For example, just because “foreigners” (non-Israelites) may eat a non-slaughtered dead animal doesn’t necessarily imply that it must be okay for them to eat lobsters or other “abominable” foods.

Marston tries to avoid such objections with debate-forestalling expressions like “The writer is surely here signalling that […]” and “Clearly […] the writer would hardly have suggested […]” to justify his own inferences about the scriptural laws. But this is just rhetorical hand-waving.

The fact is, there is no explicit and complete scriptural pronouncement about which parts of Old Testament law Christians must follow and which may be considered abrogated. So Christians end up picking and choosing which of the laws seem to them part of God’s unalterable will and which seem to them just part of an obsolete rulebook for an extinct culture. Which is why we see so many Christians vehemently defending Levitical prohibitions of homosexuality, while they never bother to denounce the equally “abominated” practice of heterosexual sex during a woman’s menstrual period, and they actually repudiate the Levitical laws about abstaining from shellfish and imposing the death penalty for adultery.

This naturally lays them open to the charge of hypocrisy, and they’ll just have to put up with that. I have no doubt that most of them are perfectly sincere in their beliefs about which Levitical laws are “really” important to God, but they’ll never come up with a logically watertight defense of those beliefs, because the scripture doesn’t provide a logically watertight set of rules. Nice try, though.

‘This *naturally * lays them open to the charge of hypocrisy, and they’ll just have to put up with that.’

Your points are spot on, apart from your own ‘rhetorical hand-waving’ (cf. your ‘naturally’ with Marston’s ‘clearly’).

There’s nothing in your own message to suggest that it’s hypocrisy that characterises a Christian’s stance. In fact, rather the opposite: you allude to their sincerity.

To summarise: making interpretations of Biblical injunctions doesn’t lay Christians open to the charge of hypocrisy at all. At least not from rational people who aim at sympathetic understanding of divergent viewpoints.

I thought there was. There are the Noachide strictures, which are supposed to be binding upon non-Jews, and then there is the Law of Israel, which is for the people of Israel. Further, when Paul promoted Christianity to the Gentiles, he got into a number of arguments about whether Gentile converts had to follow the Law of Israel – circumcision and food strictures were the big concerns of the time. (Romans 14 is illuminating on this.)

bodswood: There’s nothing in your own message to suggest that it’s hypocrisy that characterises a Christian’s stance. In fact, rather the opposite: you allude to their sincerity.

I’m not saying that I personally consider the arbitrariness of Christian interpretations of Levitical laws to be the result of hypocrisy. What I’m saying is that picking and choosing which parts of a rulebook you will follow does, naturally, lead some people who disagree with your particular picks and choices to suspect you of being hypocritical about them: i.e., that you’re just following the rules that conform to your own tastes and prejudices instead of truly trying to abide by the commandments of God. That doesn’t mean that those people will necessarily be right in their suspicions, and I withdraw the phrasing “lays them open to the charge” in case you took it to mean that.

Lilairen: * thought there was. There are the Noachide strictures, which are supposed to be binding upon non-Jews, and then there is the Law of Israel, which is for the people of Israel.*

That’s how (some) Jews see it, but as far as I know there is no unanimous rule among Christians about the difference of Biblical law for Jews and Christians. For example, Jews don’t consider observance of the Sabbath to be part of the Noachide laws, but many Christians do consider themselves required to keep Sunday as a Sabbath.

It is hard to conceive a more dangerous moral act than to use God’s law as a weapon of condemnation. Measure for measure and whatnot. He who lives by the law will die by the law.

Note that the Bible also endorses and even celebrates human slavery, blood sacrifices, and the most hideously evil examples of the wanton slaughter of children and infants and pregnant women as being “God’s will”. Given these horrible facts, any just morality is incompatible with the Bible.

The Bible’s God is a deeply immoral, evil being and the Bible’s "morality"reflects that. To live by the Bible’s moral teachings is often to be unspeakably evil. To reject it’s teachings is far more noble and morally upright in many, if not most, instances.

I don’t buy that sweeping generalization either. It’s like saying that the Straight Dope endorses and even celebrates ignorance by decontextualizing certain selections. The Bible covers quite a lot of history and quite many events, and culminates with God commanding his disciples to love.

But Leviticus is all good with lesbians. Sweeeeeeet. :smiley:

Every Jewish discussion of the Noachic Laws for Gentiles that I have read does include homosexual acts as forbidden by them. Paul is applying the same principle in Romans 1 & I Corinthians 6.

I would like to know why so much stress is given over the OT laws, when Galatians refutes them all; **“You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace”.

Am I going to be one micron holier/less holy for obeying/disobeying any OT laws? James says if I broke one, I broke them all. That’s is why we count ourselves dead to the Law, but Alive through Grace.

Strangely, I’ve read rabbis who disagree with that. But, their only qualifications are fluency in Hebrew and decades spent studying the Talmud.

That came later in the Greek and Latin translations. .

No, it wasn’t. Very little was. .

How odd then that so many rabbis, while condemning homosexuality on other grounds, have agreed with this interpretation.

Who is Scroggs and why should I care what he says?

Same questions.

What are the passages in the original Hebrew? Is the same word for abomination used? Or is it a different word that passed through Greek and Latin and ended up in English as abomination?

[QUOTE}This illustrates the kinds of odd argument found, but we cannot pursue them all.[/QUOTE]

Because if he dealt with all the arguments, he’d find some that were well supported and which he could not properly counter.

Note that I am Jewish. What Paul said or wrote carries no weight with me.

Even when he was Saul?