Doc Cathode:
How so? Because according to the “letter” cheese isn’t milk? Sounds to me like what you’re describing is definitely a violation of the Biblical prohibition.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became FOOLS;
1:27 And the men did the same thing: leaving the NATURAL use of the woman, they burned in their LUST for one another; men commintting SHAMEFUL ACTS with men, and suffering in their own bodies the penalty ( AIDS ) for their ERROR, which is their fitting retirbution.
You are what you eat!
You become what you do!
Iyyob
I could be wrong on this but I believe that the Bible splits between before Christ/ after Christ at the Old/New Testaments respectively.
There are a lot of laws stated in the old testaments that no longer held true after the coming of Christ.
For example in the old testimant (I’m sorry I don’t have any citing) it was sinful to eat ham. (Which is why Jewish people still don’t since they would only follow the Old Testament)
Since the coming of Christ all our sins are forgiven, which is a good thing since almost everything is pretty much a sin these days. I would say that this also includes homosexuality. Even if it is technically a sin, all is forgiven, and I don’t believe that you would be sent to hell for being who you are.
On a side note I am a homosexual, and I am very Christian. I went to a Christian school up until my Freshman year of High School. I believe that I am the way God made me. I never was given any choice to be gay or not, I just was… and am.
Since gay men can’t legally be married in the US (yet) Any sexual contact is considered out of wedlock and therefore is a sin, but JC forgives all!
Oh, the irony! 
Maybe because he’s not boiling the meat?
Cap and CM- Right on both counts. Clearly I’d be in violation of the intent of the law, but not the letter.
There’s a small sect called the Karaites who have no oral tradition and are strict literalists. IIRC they don’t seperate meat and milk because the Torah doesn’t explicitly command it.
BTW – did you read what you posted? And try the verse before it, which suggests that God is punishing straight men and women who turn away from Him with homosexual desires.
And, while we’re on the subject, it’s intriguing to me to find somebody with less compassion towards sufferers of Acquired ImmunoDeficiency Syndrome than the Hon. Jesse Helms, who at least recognizes that the overwhelming majority of AIDS patience worldwide are not gay.
Educate yourself before you make comments like this again.
You know, it amazes me that generations of gay people must have had sex happily and wondered what the “penalty in their own bodies” referred to, since AIDS didn’t exist until the 20th century.
Since this is GD and not the Pit, I’ll stop there.
:Slight and hopefully quick hijack 
:
I was in an argument/discussion the other day with a reverend and he asserted to me differently. He said something to the effect of “only those who are educated in the bible and who are without sin may judge” (ie, reverends/preachers who have been saved). I asked him for the relevent bible verses but he didn’t give me any.
Can you (or someone) clarify this for me? I was always led to believe that we aren’t supposed to judge others.
Thanks.
Joe Cool and I, with several others, hashed this out in some detail, though I forget whether it was GD or the Pizza Parlor Kitchen – but we came to an agreement of sorts on what the Bible teaches about it.
No human being in and of himself is to sit in judgment over another’s sinfulness (certainly jobs from judge to teacher require that one person judge another, but that in a social context and in restricted circumstances) – because we, being imperfect, are all sinners, and as we hope for mercy, we should render it to others. (cf. Golden Rule)
It is entirely proper, and often expected, for one Christian to judge the behavior of another within the context of evaluation for support and assistance, with the goal of helping and building up each other. The difference is that between condemnation and constructive criticism. And any such judging must be done in an overt context of loving support.
As for the reverend, if he believes himself to be without sin, he badly needs our prayers, as well as a good talking-to. He may have “gotten saved” and he may know the Bible, but he appears to have missed the book of Romans and I Corinthians 13, as well as passages in which Jesus lays out in lavender the people who consider themselves righteous under the Law.
In that thread on Catholics and Anal Sex, Zev_Steinhardt tells me that in Judaism and in the Torah anal sex is allowed. I wonder whether he can be reached for his opinion here. I said earlier that according to him anal sex between two men is allowed in the Old Testament. I don’t seem to be very correct with his intended meaning.
So I am reproducing the pertinent posts of the particular issue/episode in the said thread, to do him justice. But I do seem to see that he does not rule out categorically either, anal sex between two men in Judaism or in the Torah. He does give the impression that he is knowledgeable about Judaism and the Torah, their teachings and observances.
If you ask me about anal sex between two men or a man and a woman, I had a thread on the Merits of Anal and Oral Sex. but Gaudere closed it down. If your religion does not allow you anal sex, then maybe you should change your relgion, if you have the autonomy and the rationality to do so. Otherwise, keep the religious restriction and derive the reward of your religion in peace of mind or whatever. Whatever your preferences, first do no harm, then keep safe, healthy, and aesthetic.
Susma Rio Sep
Annex:
[quote]
zev_steinhardt
Member
Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 4043
quote:Originally posted by Krokodil
As a point of information, does any religion endorse anal sex?
I wouldn’t use the word “endorse,” but anal sex is explicitly permitted in Judaism (within marriage, of course).
Zev Steinhardt
04-30-2003 10:28 PM
Susma Rio Sep
Member
Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Posts: 261
quote:
Originally posted by zev_steinhardt
I wouldn’t use the word “endorse,” but anal sex is explicitly permitted in Judaism (within marriage, of course).
Zev Steinhardt
Ask any true believing servant of Jehovah or Jaweh, and he will tell you it’s an abomination.
I am not an expert in sexual taboos of Biblical Jews, but I have read the Old Testament here and there.
And the picture I get is that there’s a lot of abominations about ‘unnatural’ sex acts to be absolutely avoided by the Jews; one of them is anal sex.
Susma Rio Sep
05-01-2003 04:49 AM
zev_steinhardt
Member
Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 4043
quote:
Originally posted by Susma Rio Sep
Ask any true believing servant of Jehovah or Jaweh, and he will tell you it’s an abomination.
Are you referring to Orthodox Jews? Because if you are, you’d be wrong.
quote:
I am not an expert in sexual taboos of Biblical Jews, but I have read the Old Testament here and there.
And the picture I get is that there’s a lot of abominations about ‘unnatural’ sex acts to be absolutely avoided by the Jews; one of them is anal sex.
Susma Rio Sep
If you are familiar with the OT, then please kindly point me to the verse where it states that anal sex is prohibited. Or, if you like, I’ll spare you the trouble and tell you that it’s not there. There is no verse in the Torah prohibiting anal sex and in the Talmud it is specifically permitted.
Zev Steinhardt
05-01-2003 02:01 PM
TVAA
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Registered: Jun 2002
Location:
Posts: 1388
Yes, it’s just homosexual anal sex that’s banned, right Zev?
05-01-2003 02:27 PM
zev_steinhardt
Member
Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 4043
quote:
Originally posted by TVAA
Yes, it’s just homosexual anal sex that’s banned, right Zev?
For the most part, that is true.
Zev Steinhardt
05-01-2003 02:33 PM
TVAA
Member
Registered: Jun 2002
Location:
Posts: 1388
Precision is always important.
05-01-2003 02:49 PM
Susma Rio Sep
Member
Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Posts: 261
quote:
No, anal sex is allowed in Orthodox Judaism. Anal sex (or any other kind of sex) between two men is not.
I’ll have to search around for it, thanks for the info!
Dear Amazing:
Let me get your message correctly: anal sex is all right in Orthodox Judaism, i.e., between a man and a woman, with the man doing it to the woman; but not between two men, with either one doing it to the other, by turns.
You seem to know about Judaism and maybe the Torah. Please give me some information so that I will have reliable knowledge about Jews and their religion or religious doctrines and observances or practices, at least in some areas.
Is the Torah of the Jews the Old Testament broadly of Christians?
Are there other kinds of Judaism aside from the Orthodox one? just like there are quite a number of Christian groups, some calling themselves or being called Orthodox churches.
What is the real teaching about the act of Onan – among Jews – for which he was struck down dead? For spilling his seed outside the vessel designed by nature in the woman to receive the seed of the man?
If that be the sin of Onan, what then is the justification of anal sex in Orthodox Judaism between a man and a woman with the man doing it to the woman?
Why would an Orthodox Jew do anal sex with a woman, when it seems more feasible every way around to do vaginal sex with her? Unless, as I mentioned in my shut-down thread, anal sex is a good way to practice contraception, convenient and economical, no need to resort to condom, vaginal gel or diaphragm, or uterine devices, or contraceptive pills, and no “mess” as with withdrawal which is not so foolproof at all.
What is the morality of anal sex between a man and a woman? If it is practiced or allowed(?)in Orthodox Judaism, does it mean that it is moral, understanding moral as in morally good, as distinct from morally indifferent?
Last question, suppose I am an Orthodox Jew, and I practice anal sex with my wife for the purpose of contraception, is that all right religiously and morally in Orthodox Judaism?
Please give me your information on the preceding questions. I want to possess such information so that my knowledge of human sexuality and religious moral teachings would be more complete, in that it now also includes doctrines and practices among Orthodox Jews.
Where is Zev_Steinhardt, I need him now.
Susma Rio Sep
Although you addressed this to Captain Amazing, allow me to respond to those aspects which I can cover:
The Torah is what it has always been – the Five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. (The Hebrew names are interesting; Numbers, for example, is entitled with a Hebrew word that translates to “In the Wilderness.”) The Jewish Bible is called the Tanakh, an acronym of Torah (Law), Prophets, and Writings, and is equivalent to the Protestant New Testament, or the proterocanonical works of the Catholic/Orthodox Old Testament.
Three other groups, calling themselves Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist. Ultra-Orthodox Jews are ©Hasidic. An authoritative Jew would have to speak to the distinctions, but roughly the degree of adherence to the Law with all the fences is Hasidic > Orthodox > Conservative > Reform. What distinguished the Reconstructionists I don’t understand.
Again a Jew would have to speak to this, but briefly the understanding I have gained, which I believe is accepted among the scholarly of both Jewish and Christian faiths, is that Onan was refusing to honor the levirate, to beget a son on Tamar who would be regarded as the heir of Er, the firstborn of Judah (and therefore heir to an extra share of Judah’s estate) and practiced coitus interruptus to avoid conceiving that child. It has nothing to do with masturbation or the general idea of practicing coitus interruptus, but rather was the sin of failing to carry out the command to raise up a son to your deceased childless brother.
A married couple is entitled to have sexual relations, not merely for the conception of a child, but because it’s pleasurable and they are to pleasure each other with their bodies. (**)
Because they want to? Why would vaginal sex be more “feasible”? – assuming the woman wants anal sex, of course.
See answer marked (**) above.
I suspect, Susma, that your problem lies in a conception of sex as exclusively for the purpose of procreation, and a careful examination of Scripture as well as looking at human behavior generally would demonstrate to you that such is by no means the case. That is its biological purpose, of course, but we are not merely animals, and sex has social and psychological purposes that are quite different from merely procreative activities.
I can’t promise to be authoritative, or to answer all of your questions, but I’ll try.
The Torah (“law”)is the first five books of the bible… Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Numbers, and Leviticus The Torah, along with the Nevi’im (“prophets”) and Kethuvim (“the writings”), make up what Jews call the Tanakh, and Christians call the Old Testament.
There are Jews other than Orthodox Jews, especially in America, with the two other main groups being the Conservative and Reform, with a smaller group called Reconstructionist Judaism. These groups differ from each other basically on how the Torah and Talmud should be viewed and how they are applicable to modern times. This, of course, leads to different views on all sorts of things, from Sabbath observance to gender roles. Even among Orthodoxy, there’s a diversity of opinion, ranging from the traditional Orthodox, to the Modern Orthodox, to the Hasidim.
About Onan, there was a rule that said that if a man died without a son, his brother should marry his widow and have a son with her, who should be raised as the son of the dead brother. Onan refused to do that and that’s why he was struck dead.
An Orthodox Jew would have anal sex with his wife because he enjoyed it, or she enjoyed it, or they both enjoyed it. Judaism says that sex is supposed to be pleasurable, and any sex act between a husband and wife that’s consentual and that brings them pleasure is ok. Or, alternately, they may do it for contraception.
As far as I know, Orthodox Jews believe the use of contraception is all right. However, if you’re always using contraception, and always try to prevent pregnancy from occuring, that’s a bad thing. A married couple should try to have kids if they’re able to.
Wouldn’t that violate the prohibition on wasting seed?
Other than that, I’d like to quote from the book Boychiks In The Hood-Travels In The Hasidic Underground.
The writer was asking a group of Hasidic rabbis about the UL that Orthodox Jews may only have sex through a hole in a sheet. None of the rabbis knew how this legend had started. One said "Our business is to give our wives pleasure!"This may seem out of place since we have surpassed the Bible to discuss Orthodox Jewish views on heterosexual anal sex, but here it is nonetheless:
As a practicing Christian, I just want to share some of my beliefs on what you have discussed. Your comments have all given me very interesting things to think about, and here are my personal thoughts:
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If you read the beginning chapters of John’s gospel, you will notice that while “The word was with God and the word was God (John 1:1),” he also draws a major line between the Old and New Testaments. The beautiful paradox of Jesus is that he came to fulfill and dismantle the law. He fulfilled the prophecies of the old testament by becoming the perfect sacrifice. In doing this, he negated the need for all the extraneous laws of the Old Testament. God’s purpose of making these laws was for the protection of his people.
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In both the Old and New Testaments, homosexual acts are referred to as sins. While this may seem extreme, especially if God creates people with more or less testosterone/estrogen than their gender would normally call for, think about most homosexual people. If it is simply where I live or the homosexual people that I know, most of them live sinful lifestyles. Homosexuality is different from most other sins in that it is not only a single sin, but a lifestyle. Not only are they taking part in homosexual acts, but they are simply drowning in all sorts of sin. Unfortunately, I have never known any exceptions to this rule.
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The perfect judge of everything is Jesus. He is the pure and blameless man whom the scripture was referring to. The rest of us are sinners alike and cannot condemn any other man. When the Bible instructs us to love our brothers as ourselves, this applies to every Christian on the planet. When it tells us to treat our neighbors as we would like to be treated, this applies to everyone with whom we come into contact. Since divinity alone can judge and forgive, any person’s sin is between him and Jesus and/or God. Homosexual people can repent, just as with any sin.
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There is no sliding scale of sin. Sin is sin. It is only differentiated in the consequences that it bears. Homosexuality may be a different type of sin, but it is sin, just like telling a lie. It simply tends to have worse consequences.
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The main point of the Bible is not that certain things are sins, or that certain people are more condemnable for their sin, but rather, that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, the Life. It is impossible to mold one interpretation for every single person who reads the Bible, but it cannot be doubted that, past everything else in the Bible, it is mostly saying that God loves his creation and that he offers them a way of redemption through his son Jesus.
Just because you have never known any exceptions to this rule doesn’t mean that there aren’t any. I’ve never known any people who’ve climbed Mount Everest; should I conclude that they don’t exist?
As has been discussed elsewhere, homosexuality is only a lifestyle if the gay person in question chooses to make it one (going to pride marches all the time, choosing what movies to watch or books to read based on whether they have gay-related content, etc). Certainly, some gays do this, but they’re in the minority. Likewise, some gays lead dissolute lives full of sin. Others are perfectly decent people. Gays are as varied as straights. If you’ve only met “sinful” ones so far, I suggest you make an effort to meet others. Maybe go to a relatively liberal church when it’s hosting a speech or event relating to gays in religion and see what kind of people you meet there.
There are all kinds of gay people, just like there are all kinds of straight people. The judgement you just passed on gay people as a group is astonishingly arrogant and deeply flawed. Saying that all gay people are “drowning in sin” is patently ridiculous.
But don’t take my word for it. Here’s a thread in which gay people discuss their day to day lives. Read it. And realize that what you just stated above is prejudice, in its simplest, rawest form. Condemning an entire group because of the actions of some individuals. What kind of Christian does that?