So apparently, the government has spent about $3.5M to date in an attempt to discover why lesbians are more likely to be obese than heterosexual women, in contrast to gay men who are less likely to be obese than heterosexual men. According to the study abstract:
Here’s my theory, which I offer for a lot less than the NIH rates: it’s not about being gay or straight but about needing to appeal to men versus women.
Meaning that, on average, men tend to be more offput by obese partners than women are. It would follow from this that lesbian women would have less of a disincentive to let their weight soar than heterosexual women, since lesbian women want to appeal to women, while heterosexual women want to appeal to men. The converse would apply to men - gays trying to appeal to men would have more incentive to remain slim than would heterosexuals trying to appeal to women.
As to why this, in turn, is so, that’s another question. If I could edge a bit further out on this limb, I would speculate that it may be connected with the fact that women tend to be smaller than men, such that an attraction to women would be linked with an attraction to a smaller size and vice versa. Where this gets complicated of course, is that gays and lesbians are not attracted to the gender which fits the size stereotype. So this amounts to speculation that some element of attraction which is linked to heterosexual attraction continues to apply in the case of gays and lesbians.
Again, this is speculation of course - an idea that popped into my head the other day when I saw a headline about the subject.
[Standard disclaimer: this is not a statement about any individual and how much they weigh or who they may or may not be attracted to or what the nature of their attraction is etc. etc. This is about averages that apply to broad categories of people.]
Well as you say, your theory seems to raise equally difficult questions of its own. And also, you haven’t given any reason for proposing this hypothesis: is it an IME thing?
Some other theories (and apologies if any of this causes offense, I’m trying not to):
[ul]
[li]Lesbian women are fewer in number than straight women/men or gay men (at least the number of women that self-categorize as 100% gay), and I recall seeing polls that suggested that they tend to have fewer partners. That being the case, maybe for them the focus is more on just finding other single lesbians than trying to out-compete them?[/li][li]Partly a freedom / feminist thing? That women caring about their appearance too much is perceived as a product of a patriarchal society, and is resented and rejected. Ooh, plus really not wanting attention from men.[/li][li]Hormonal / physiological differences. Perhaps there are some differences on average between lesbians and straight women that they simply physically have a greater tendancy to store fat? Although we’d like to imagine sexual orientation and physiology are entirely separate, correlations have tentatively been found both in hormones, neurology, etc.[/li][/ul]
I disagree. (I assume you’re referring to the second part here.)
Anything in men which tends to support an attraction to women will tend to be selected for. If an attraction to smaller bodies (for men) supports an attraction to women, then it will be selected for, even if it’s inherently unconnected to the attraction to women itself, since as a practical matter it supports it. So it’s possible that this would tend to be present even where the actual attraction to women is not present. (And conversely for women.)
I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here - in fact I sure I don’t - but there’s certainly no IME angle involved.
Just to be clear, your hypothesis is that there’s some sizable (heh) population of overweight people, especially women, who just aren’t trying to lose weight because they don’t care about being attractive to men.
First of all, by this logic, heterosexual men should be fatter than heterosexual women. Is this the case? Certainly not in my experience.
Secondly, I’ve never met an overweight person who didn’t want to lose weight. If it were just a matter of needing to attract a man, there were would be no overweight heterosexual single women. But there are; droves of them. Probably all of whom have a desire to lose weight, many of whom are actively trying and simply not succeeding.
I’m not sure that I have a better theory, but I’m pretty skeptical about yours.
I don’t know if this is the case or not, but I don’t think it makes a difference if it is. Because I’m not suggesting that motivation is the only factor involved. There are clearly physiological differences between men and women and these could impact that comparison, not to mention the impact of pregnancies.
The point about the comparison that this specific study is making is that gay and straight people are presumably the same physiologically, which raises the question as to what other factor might be the variable. I’ve suggested one possibility.
Motivation is not an either/or, and you could be more or less motivated, and the degree of motivation would be a factor in how successful you are. I’m surprised that you would disagree with this (or if you don’t, then I’ve failed to understand what you’re saying).
If I had to guess, I’d say that it’s a combination of two tendencies. One - women are more likely to have a harder time losing weight than men are. Two - people tend to slowly match the thinness/overweight level of the people they spend time with. The second may be a matter of matching eating and exercise patterns, but the studies haven’t been done. All that’s been reported is a possible correlation.
“Small” is quite different from “not obese”, though. Women are on average shorter than men, but it’s not my impression that short men are considered particularly desirable by gay men in general – although there is of course plenty of variation with regard to what individual gay men find attractive. Women also tend to have less muscle and more body fat than men, but again this is not the body type that most gay men seem to prefer. There are definitely gay men into the waifish “twink” type, but there are also plenty who are into big, muscular dudes. The men depicted in, say, Tom of Finland’s fetish art aren’t “small” in any sense of the word.
Huh? I’m simply repeating back to you what you said in the OP: that your hypothesis leads to the question in turn of why men (of whatever sexual orientation) would have this preference relative to women.
And, as steronz points out, there are additional things we’d have to explain, like why straight men are not more obese than straight women.
What I’m asking is what led you to propose this hypothesis? Where did it come from?
Because at this point you have a hypothesis that has apparently come from nowhere, with no supporting data* and leads to questions at least as difficult as it was proposed to solve.
And before you say it, the difference in obesity rates cannot be considered supporting data as that is the phenomenon the hypothesis was proposed to explain in the first place.
Maybe, but it’s pretty obvious to me that married men tend to be fatter than unmarried men of the same age. I mean, it’s practically a stereotype, how guys start widening around the midsection as soon as they “settle down”. Haven’t you heard of the whole “dad bod” meme running around?
It leads to that question, but that doesn’t imply any difficulty. Men and women are attracted to different things, and there’s not any difficulty involved in postulating that this is one of them. I happened to think of an idea so I posted it, but even absent that there’s nothing difficult about the initial suggestion.
I mentioned in the OP that this was “an idea that popped into my head the other day when I saw a headline about the subject”.
OK, so there’s no “supporting data”, adopting your definition. It’s a hypothesis that explains both the relative prevalence of obesity among lesbians and the relative paucity of it among gays. Good enough for consideration IMO. YMMV.
I can’t speak to the people steronz knows, but a quick Google turned up this page of Overweight and Obesity Statistics from the NIH National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases website. According to the study they cite, among American adults age 20+, men (74%) are more likely than women (64%) to be overweight or obese, with both sexes being equally likely (36%) to be obese.
They don’t break things down by sexual orientation, but if it’s true that gay men are less likely to be obese than straight men while lesbians are more likely to be obese than straight women then removing homosexuals from the pool would presumably result in an obesity gender gap with more obese heterosexual men than women. And again, even without removing homosexuals from consideration, this study found that men are more likely than women to be overweight-but-not-obese.
First of all Fotheringay-Phipps I’m not trying to be the antagonist here, or threadshit or whatever. This is exactly the kind of scrutiny ideas get.
When I have ideas, I absolutely welcome scrutiny and the Dope can be a good place for that.
But that’s a handwave, not an explanation, or supporting data.
But it was proposed in the first place to explain that. The same is true of my hypotheses and probably hundreds more besides.
And it raises the question, once again, of why obesity rates between straight men and women are not significantly different.
My mileage indeed varies.
You have a hypothesis with no reason to suggest in the first place, which requires one to accept an assertion that you’ve given no supporting data for at all, other than it seems plausible to you. And you’ve just ignored any data which conflicts with the idea.
ok…
1 Being a gay guy i have know idea what the is and well I’m to lazy to wiki it. So I can’t answer that.
2 Really? I’m fat (+285lbs), and I don’t recall being “kiddy fiddled”. How ever what I do recall is all the junior high and high-school kids and the some of the adults in my life then giving me psychobabble b.s. about being “different” that made me try to stuff myself “happy” with food.:mad:
3 I know a lot of wealthy lesbians in The Woodland area. But you are right about wealth and nutrition. I see many more poor and over weight straight people though.
4 Well you are right about being a gay man is hard, and most of the lesbians I know are well pretty damn happy and well adjusted. So I don’t think that is the reason they are chunky.
But I think lesbians do get a slight pass, cause you know “red blooded Murkin guys” like to see two or more girls kiss and make out with each other.:smack:
A very useful way of thinking about these sort of questions is evolutionary biology. There is a lot of research backing up this line of thinking, see for instance Matt Ridley’s The Red Queen, or Steven Pinker’s The Blank Slate.
The differences in offspring investment leads to a set of sex differences. Men care more about the looks and youthfulness of their partner, Women care more about the status of their partner and whether they will stick around during child rearing.
In this view it follows that homosexual men would be more focused on appearance than straight men (since they want to appeal to men), and homosexual women would be less focused on appearance than straight women (since they want to appeal to women). (On average of course.) And obesity is a part of appearance.
I think that, generally (IMHO), desirable heterosexual men tend to be fatter or have more leeway than desirable heterosexual women of typically corresponding age range and background.
FWIW, for much of my marriage my wife weighed as much as I did, and I’m a good sized (not overly fat, not thin, above avg height) dude. But i’m much more likely to see a guy my size with a 120 lb wife than I am to see a 300 lb woman with a 120 lb guy, outside of certain fetishes. And I see a lot of lesbian couples with one thin more “girly” partner and one partner who resembles a sort of portly fellow in style/appearance.
