Honest opinions on these cars?

In My Humble Opinion
1

We are new car shopping, although we may buy used. My SO wants a new car warranty so is mainly looking at new vehicles. We went to the Minneapolis Auto show and these were the top contenders. I’d like opinions from those of you who own, have owned or know someone who owns/has owned these cars. We don’t have children or haul a lot of people around so backseat space is not important. Gas mileage is starting to be a factor, but anything over 20 MPG is OK. I don’t require massive horsepower, I drove a 1990 Geo Tracker with <100 HP for years, and was OK with that. I like having 4WD or AWD, mainly because of the fact that our house is on a road that gets plowed last. We’d like to stay under $28,000 or so for a new car. Some options are fairly important to me. I have heated seats in my current car and would really like them in a new vehicle. I am debating leather seats. I currently have them and they are nice, but I don’t like it in the summer (I have black leather, so it gets hot. Not fun in shorts). Transmission doesn’t matter, but I’d give an edge to a manual. We have a van to haul our dogs and larger things, so cargo space in a new vehicle will not be a deciding factor. One of my main requirements is that any new vehicle be good in the snow.

  1. PT Cruiser Turbo Convertible. My SO like these, I hate them. He says the new turbo is better than the older models, more horsepower, blah, blah, blah.
    Pros: He’s worked with a local dealer, driven them, and can get a brand new 2005 $30,000 model at a very marked down price - they want to get rid of them.
    Cons: I would refuse to drive it, I think they’re ugly. No 4WD.

  2. Jeep Liberty. We’ve test driven a couple of these, and I really like them.
    Pros: Same dealer as above, possibly a good deal. Has 4WD.
    Cons: There are a lot of them around here. Loaded models are near our price limit. Gas mileage could be a problem.

  3. Subaru Outback I’ve wanted one of these for a year or so, two of my aunts have Subarus (one a Forester, the other a Legacy sedan) and they love them.
    Pros: AWD, and I like the looks.
    Cons: Loaded models are near the price limit, the placement of the emergency brake bothers me. Gas mileage could be a problem.

  4. Mini Cooper. This is the one I really want. I’d like the S model, haven’t really made up my mind on convertible or not. I’ve convinced my SO that these are cool, he’s starting to lean this way.
    Pros: I want one badly. Fun factor.
    Cons: I don’t know how they’d be in the snow, no AWD. I’m worried about how practical they are - we do get a lot of snow.

  5. Pontiac Vibe. I’ve seen these at a local dealer, but haven’t test driven one.
    Pros: Cheap, has AWD.
    Cons: I still base my Pontiac experience on two Trans Ams I owned back in the 80’s. Lots of problems there, I don’t know if they’ve improved.

Other cars we saw at the auto show that could be in the running:

6.** Saab 92-X Aero**. I really liked sitting in this one, I got into it and it fit. Have you ever had the feeling of a perfect fit when sitting in a car? This was it. It has AWD but was over our price limit.

  1. Land Rover Freelander. I liked this one too, but a loaded model would be over our price limit. +++ for being a Land Rover.

8.** Jeep Wrangle**r. I had never considered these before, but I liked the one I saw at the auto show. Cheap, but not many creature comforts.

2

Do not buy a Liberty. Two cow-orkers of mine have them and both have had no end of trouble, including one tranny replacement and various and sundry problems with brakes, which seem to be endemic. Tire wear seems to be a problem, too: no matter what tires are put on there, about 30k-40k is the maximum you can expect, leading me to believe that they have a poor suspension design. Also, this is not a good vehicle on ice. (I don’t know about snow.) As a replacement for the Cherokee, this thing is an utter failure.

I have to admit a prejudice here: I’ve own 5 Subarus, and expect for the POS Justy (don’t ask) they’ve all been wonderful cars. They handle quite well, the AWD is a great feature in rain and ice, good ergonomics, ease of serviceability (the oil filter is located such that I can change the oil without jacking up the car or getting more than my hand dirty), and the commonality of platform among their models means that parts are readily available and reasonably priced. The flat-four (boxer-type) engine has a nearly 40 year history behind it and is often described as “bulletproof”; the low bearing loads, owing to horizonatally-opposed configuration, mean that with good maintainence the engine will be running long after the rest of the car is sold for scrap. I’ve put two of them beyond 250k (one to 310k) and both were still running when I sold them. My current driver (1999 Legacy GT 2.5) has 146k miles; the only problems I’ve had were a (slightly) leaky engine seal at around 90k (about $150 to fix), and the sunroof has jammed twice (first time under warranty, second time I just pulled it closed and put it on my as-yet uncompleted “to-do” list to fix.) That’s it. I did replace the timing belt at 90k when I had the afformentioned seal replaced, but it looked like new; it could easily have gone another 50k-100k.

Negatives: As you mention, gas milage isn’t the best, I think it’s 22 local/27 highway, and I get 24-25 with regular highway driving, but I’m a fairly nonconservative driver. The stock tires on my car (Bridgestone Potenza RE-82s, I think) were utter crap, but since they were replaced with Dunlop SP-5000 Asym the car handles like an Audi S4. The only thing I’d do differently today is get the turbocharged engine, which wasn’t available when I bought this car, but the 165bhp and 162ftlb of torque is quite adequate. This isn’t a car for towing, though; if you need to tow, look at the H6 Outback or consider a different vehicle.

I’m not sure about your issue with the parking brake location. It’s in the same (and IMHO, correct) place that is standard for all European autos. The Japanese seem to be split as to whether to go with US or European ergonomics, but in this case, I find the center console location of the brake to be entirely more convenient than the hidden under the dash. Just MHO, I guess, but I’ve never had a problem with it.

Nice little car; very stable, surprising amount of interior space (for two people…the back is kinda cramped for adults), and has good reliability ratings so far. It’s not my cup of tea, but they seem to be solid and fun cars.

I’ve never had anything good to say about the GM products I’ve driven (other than the 'Vette, and that’s a zebra of a different set of stripes entirely.) Ugly, too. I’d avoid this one.

This is a Subaru Impreza Turbo with a Saab nameplate. Look at the Subaru WRX for a price comparison; I think the Subs (having less of a prestiege reputation) will be cheaper. Again, great cars.

I have to warn you, the Wrangler sucks, sucks, sucks for highway driving. Maybe they’ve improved in the last few years, but it used to be, anything over 55mph and they’re shaking like a sleazy hotel bed. It’s a fun Saturday-afternoon-at-the-beach car, but as a daily driver it’ll wear you down quick.

Good luck, whatever you choose.

Stranger

3

Try these…
-Dodge SRT-4 - built like a freakin’ tank to stand up to racers’ abuses, it’s not in any way comparable to the Neon that spawned it.

-Honda Civic - wait for the new one to come out as the current one is lousy.

-Subaru Impreza WRX - easier on gas than the plain 2.5 and a very reliable, fun-to-drive car.
I like the MINI as well.
Always, always, always get the sportiest, most powerful version of the car you can get. You don’t lose anything in mileage, the reduced depreciation makes up for the higher initial price, and better-quality components are usually used so reliabilty is often better.

4

Actually, I think I got the Subaru’s interior and the Liberty’s mixed up - it was the parking brake’s location on the Liberty I didn’t like. It is right next to the driver with the gear shifter further right. I am used to driving a manual transmission and it seemed like a long way to reach to shift - not really an issue with an automatic, I guess. I was surprised at the lack of manual transmissions at the auto show.

Thanks for your opinions, they do really help.

Now you sound like my boyfriend. He always wants the bestest, fastest and most powerful. He definitely tends towards sports cars. The price differences can be huge, though, and I’m the one who ends up with the speeding tickets. I do like the Subaru Impreza WRX sport wagon. I will take a closer look at that.

5

The Pontiac Vibe is just a re-badged Toyota Matrix.

6

Consider:

The new Ford Freestyle . It’s got the AWD platform.

The all new Volvo V50. AWD available.
Also see the sedan version S40.

The Mazda6 models are good drivers but no AWD.

My current favourites are the VW Passat, with the 4Motion platform and the Audi A4. The latter being a bit pricier.

The WRX is a fun sporty choice as well. A bit too much of a ralley car look for the street but that depends on your personal taste. The Subaru Legacy is very nice too. I find the interiors a bit sparse and lacking compared with the german cars but good options never the less.

7

Disclaimer: I don’t own any of these cars, but I comparison-shopped all of these models not long ago, and I’ll share my conclusions:

I drove the PT Cruiser Turbo, and I did not like it at all. I found the seating position to be uncomfortable, the visibility to be poor, and it was generally unrefined. Its Neon underpinnings really showed through. It has good amounts of power, but the engine sounds harsh and thrashy when you accelerate hard.

If you’re considering one, take it for a long test drive and see how comfortable you feel in it. Some people seem to like them, but I just hated it.

The Liberty is maybe the best small SUV if you’re into hard-core offroading. As a commuter vehicle, it leaves a lot to be desired, and IMO is roundly beaten by the Ford Escape, Subaru Outback, Honda CR-V, and a couple of others in this class. I found it uncomfortable to drive. No good places to rest your elbows, a cheap interior, and the stiff suspension coupled with the short wheelbase made it feel like it was bunny-hopping over bumps.

If Gas Mileage is a problem, why are you considering the Liberty? The Liberty gets 16/22 city/hwy, whereas the Outback gets 19/25. I think the Jeep Liberty has perhaps the worst gas mileage in this segment.

I like the Outback. A lot. If you want to save some money, also consider the Subaru Impreza RS wagon. Much cheaper, but it retains many of the same characteristics and it’s built on the same platform.

This one I didn’t drive, and don’t know much about them.

I liked the Vibe, but the problem I had with it was that you can either get it with the bigger engine, or with AWD, but not with both. AWD and low horsepower is a losing combination. The AWD drivetrain is heavier and has more friction losses. If Pontiac made the bigger engine available in the AWD with a manual transmission, it would be a serious contender.

The Saab is nothing but a repackaged Subaru WRX with a Saab price premium. If you liked this car, try the WRX, which will be almost identical and thousands cheaper. The Impreza RS I mentioned is also from the same family, but with a naturally aspirated 2.5L instead of the 2.0L turbo. The advantage of the RS is more low-end torque and it runs on regular gas.

One vehicle you should put on your list is the Ford Escape. It’s a really, really good small SUV, and it’s what we wound up buying. It’s more fun to drive than the Liberty, it rides better, gets better gas mileage, and it looks great. You can also get good deals on them.

8

My sister’s boyfriend has a Mini Cooper S, and reported that it handled fine (in non-4WD terms) in the fairly-snowy Scottish highlands. And yes, it’s tremendous fun. Except when you’re following him, and on joining a motorway he instantly disappears off into the distance :frowning:

9

I gotta take issue with the first statement (though I agree wholeheartedly with the rest.) While the Liberty is a true 4WD with a manually engaged transfer (which is, IMHO and IME, vastly inferior to a full time AWD for slick pavement) the suspension and underbody structure leave a lot to be desired for off-roading. Despite how high it sits, it doesn’t offer great clearance (I think the Outback and the Forester have about an inch on it) and it just isn’t built as sturdily as the old Cherokee (which was a solid vehicle) or a true off-roader; in fact, it didn’t impress me as being any more appopriate for off-road apps than the Honda CRV. (I’ve done a fair amount of work on one afformentioned cow-orkers Liberty, so I’ve seen this up close.)

IMHO, the best small SUV for off-roading is the Nissan X-Terra, with the caveat that they badly need to relocate the alternator, which sits low and tends to get shorted out in heavy water or mud. This thing is built for bear, has high clearance and quite a potent engine, and is just all-around a better engineered and built vehicle. Of course, it rides more like a truck, gets crappy milage, and if you don’t need an SUV you’re better off on all counts with a hatchback, but to each his own.

I don’t have the torque curves in front of me, but I don’t think the 2.5 really offers proportionally more torque on the low end. The boxer configuration (which is also used in the Porsche 911-series and the Ferrari Testarossa) has poor low-end torque (hence, it isn’t really the best for towing) but has a flat, wide torque band once you get up to speed. For the Subaru engines in particuarly, 3000rpm is about as low as you see good torque, but it stays steady all the way up to the redline. If I recall correctly, the turbo (on applicable models) kicks in somewhere below 4000rpm. With some engines, the high speed would be an issue, but as I said before, the Subarus are renown for their engine longevity.

Funny, I found this to be an extremely uncomfortable vehicle to drive. I got one as a rental (they were out of sedans in the compact class) and although I’m not particuarly tall (5’10") or have enormously long legs, I found my right knee jammed painfully into the dashboard in order to operate the throttle. It handled, well, like a small SUV, which doesn’t impress me (the only vehicle that fits in that class that I like is the űberstable Forester), and it was otherwise meh–ne’ther good nor bad. But YMMV.

Stranger

10

The Jeep Wrangler is truly designed as an offroad vehicle. I’ve owned three of them, and while the post-1996 models are vastly superior in comfort and amenities to what went before, they are not designed for long-distance driving, primarily because of road noise. On the 4WD front, the Jeep transmission is not really designed for full-time use at highway speeds. The front tranny will become noisy over time, to the point of making you think it’s going to conk out on you. Rear storage space is small, but if it’s only the two of you, not a problem. That said, this is one fun vehicle and will take you almost anywhere, including rock climbing.

You might consider the Honda CRV, which I now own. It’s roomy and only comes in two models, so you don’t have to dicker over endless options. The top shelf model comes with a sun/moon roof, 6-CD player, AC, cruise, power doors and windows, full-sized spare, AWD, picnic table and fold-down rear seats. All this for about $22,000. It gets decent mileage with the 4-cylinder engine (it’s built on the Civic chassis), has terrific trade-in value, and will last nearly forever.

11

Have had a Mini Cooper S 2005 since November. No problem in fairly moderate snow on Long Island this winter. Love it. Best handling car I had since a Triumpth in the 1960’s. Cool factor has yet to even begin to wear off. We are considering a second one so we don’t have to flip in the morning for who gets the Mini!

12

You might also want to check out the Honda Element. Great room, decent milage, available 4 wheel drive, and unique looks. I’m getting one soon. Can’t beat them for the money.

13

Take a look at the Subaru Forester. It has some of the SUV-style benefits you seem to want, while also being rather car-like and not too big. The 2.5XT version is extremely quick, just like the WRX, and it’s a Suby, so it should be great in the snow.

14

My advice would be to stay away from the Jeep. Mind you, I love Jeeps, but if you’re not a “Jeep person” then you’ll quickly find yourself annoyed with them.

If you’re really set on the Pontiac Vibe, I suggest you check out the Toyota Matrix first, evidently there’s some differences between the two models other than simply trim and the reviews I’ve read indicate that the Matrix is a better model.

I don’t know much about the Mini-Cooper’s. I’ve seen them, they look nice, but as far as quality and handling goes, I don’t know.

I’ve got a friend from Sweden and he never has anything good to say about Saabs, so make of that what you will. I know many of the older models were absolute shite (Hey! Let’s mount the radiator on the firewall!)

I utterly loathe anything made by Ford and it’s hapless minions (like Volvo). They’ve always been a nightmare of problems for me, and a friend of mine who has a fairly new Escape is now having lots of electrical problems with it.

The only thing I know about Subaru’s is that they’re owned by GM and that at one time it was difficult to get parts for them.

Honda’s are great cars, though. (Admittedly I’m biased, my mommy works for a Honda dealership.) I owned a 1984 Honda, and literally drove that car to death. It rarely had any problems, and most of the ones it did were easy to fix (those that weren’t were at least cheap to fix). If I were going to buy a new car, Honda (especially the Element) would be my first pick. The only Honda I would recommend you stay away from is their new pick up truck and that’s only because it’s just been introduced, so they haven’t had a chance to correct any design quirks that might crop up under real world conditions.

15

Subaru should start paying commission. If you buy one that’ll be the about the third one I’ve sold on this board. Great cars. Just remember, don’t bother with the automatic - it suxorsxewxseurs.

16

GM is a minority (though a significant minority) in Fuji Heavy Industries, the congomerate that owns and manufactures the chassis and engine for Subaru. So far as I know, there is no crossover of technology or styling (and if there were, I’d be manifestly distressed. GM…ugh!)

I don’t recall it ever being a problem to get parts for them from the Eighties on. Because their vehicles are all built on one of two common platforms (Impreza and Legacy) and their engines (even the H6) are all variations on the same flat-four configuration, they have a high degree of parts compatibility between models. There aren’t a tremendous lot of nonperformance aftermarket parts, to be sure, but I’ve found the OEM parts to be reasonably priced and readily available in salvage. Try to say the same about Volvo (who used to make it a mission to change parts from year to year) or Chevrolet (who used three different alternators–all with different mounting configurations–in the same model year of Corsica/Beretta. :rolleyes: )

Stranger

17

Is there any noticable difference between a Japanese-built Subaru and an American-built Subaru? Mine was built in Japan and shipped to the US, but I assume that if I ever buy a new one it’ll be US-built.

18
  1. PT Cruiser Turbo Convertible

I think they’re ugly, too.

  1. Jeep Liberty, Wrangler

Several friends have owned Jeeps, including the Liberty (which broke down the most) and the Wrangler (which didn’t handle very well), and say they aren’t very reliable. The girl who owned the Liberty was seen in her rental car more often than her Liberty, because it was always in the shop.

  1. Subaru Outback

IMO, you can’t go wrong with a Subaru. I had a 1995 Subaru Impreza and it was the most reliable car I’ve ever owned, and one of the most comfortable. That car fit me like a glove, but I am only 5’3" tall. My 1983 Toyota pickup was second in reliability.

  1. Mini Cooper

I’ve heard nothing but good things about these cars as far as handling, comfort and reliability, but reliability really won’t show itself for a few years. And they are so damn cool!

  1. Pontiac Vibe

If I won one of these, I’d sell it immediately.

6.** Saab 92-X Aero**

My friend used to own a Saab 900 and he called it the K-mart Special.

  1. Land Rover Freelander

In my dreams.

19

The America-build Subarus (Legacy and most Outback) do seem to have a lower build quality in terms of interior fit. It’s not bad, mind you–not like, to pick my perfectly random evil piece of crap car of choice, the Chevy Corsica–but the WRX and the Foresters I’ve seen were definitely held to higher standards as far as fit and finish. OTOH, my Indiana-build Legacy has had no problems that can be associated with assembly processes; my biggest complaint is that the lower window fringing on the front passenger door is about 4mm shorter than it should be.

At this time, the WRX and (I believe) the Legacy GT Turbo are being manufactured in Japan. The some of the Foresters might be as well. I believe the rest are all being assembled in Indiana. (There’s a sticker on the window that will tell you, or you can look at the ID plate inside the driver’s door well which will state the assembly location.)

Stranger

20

Don’t buy a Jeep of any kind.

I long for the day where I can get a new (used) car and get rid of my hellish Jeep Wrangler…