That’s another thing I miss about my big Chicago apartment - being able to invite a bunch of people over and not worry about space. We’ve invited up to 4-5 people over at a time but it only works in the summer when we can go out on the balcony.
The two studios I’ve lived in were thereabouts of 500 sq ft and 600 sq ft.
The largest one was a loft; the volume enclosed by the walls wouldn’t have been much bigger than the other one. I liked the distribution in the smaller one better, it was just one room with a wall sticking out of its back, a walk-in closet to the left of the wall (leading to the bathroom) and the kitchen to its right.
Both of them were in the States: Miami and Philadelphia, respectively.
In Spain a 2B1b is usually 60m[sup]2[/sup] or about 645 sq ft. This isn’t much larger than that second studio, but somehow the space tends to be more useful (partly because there isn’t a stair taking up floor space, partly because there are more walls and therefore more wall space). Both the flat I own and the one I’m currently renting are this size and could easily fit 3 or 4 people (both were fitting a couple and their child, before me); they’re overlarge for me but smaller places would be ridiculously expensive and not have space for visitors.
ETA: I forgot my Glasgow studio, which clocked in at about 400 sq ft. Huge room (Victorian building, it used to be what I think is called the “drawing room”), tiny bathroom, tiny kitchen.
My grandparents’ flat is the “standard” 90m[sup]2[/sup]: 968 sq ft. In the postwar years, the tiny bedroom to the right of the entrance (4.8m[sup]2[/sup] - 50 sq ft) was rented to a family with a baby and a toddler. My grandparents lived there (with their two daughters), so did his parents and his sister and her husband (my mother’s cousin arrived a lot later). So, 12 people, I think I’m not forgetting anybody.
Those 968sq ft are considered appropriate for a family of 4-6 now.
Maybe I should immigate to Europe.
This gives me the opening I need: there is room for debate, but the subject matter is impossible to nail down.
Life. Is.
So much of it is so open for debate, or out of your control, or worry about shit that never happens that it’s just best to take things as they come, do that whole persuit of happiness(whatever local reality that may be) thing, and address the issues as they actually become issues.
Some of it is a when in Rome, do as the Romans do…I am unable to live in a 600 s.f. Apartment, on a rice mat, where I live. And due to my upbringing and local society, I DON’T WANT TO.
Monstro: I suggest getting a new Realator…this one is obviously more concerned with her percentage in a down market. I suggest cutting your parents some slack. If they had to life in your house, under your rules, they would be VERY unhappy. The way aging works, they may have to, will you be “now you get to live in MY HOUSE, With MY rules! (evil laugh)” or will you show a little sympathy at someone who IS losing everything that made them happy, because man, that’s a nasty shit sammich we all get to eat. Aging is a bitch.
There’s a difference between living on credit, and funding a life you care to live. I am also exceedingly happy, more and more, that my life is NOT dictated by the people who are the most vocal, they haven’t demonstrated to have my best interests at heart and SURE WOULD increase my unhappiness, if they we’re suddenly given the magic wand of rulership.
They don’t have to live with me. They have three other offspring with more space who they can live with.
But if it came down to me, then yes, they’re going to be living under my rules. You know how people, especially old folks, like to talk about taking personal responsibility? Well, if you don’t take personal responsibility and make sure you’re living well within your means with a good buffer, then you can’t complain when you’re forced to live in a small house without all those good ole ammenties you’re used to. I’m going to do what’s best for my parents, no doubt. But that means following my own principals and philosophy of life, not theirs. If they have to have a giant flat-screened TV to be happy, then my parents are screwed up in the head. I don’t see why I have to enable that madness just to be a “good” daughter.
If one uses resources wisely, that person doesn’t have to worry about someone else dictating their life. That’s what being an independent and responsible adult is all about.
But you’re so invested in your personal philosophy that you can’t see anyone else’s.
You’re locking on their Televisions…they HAVE to HAVE a LARGE TEE VEE to be HAAAAAPY.
Perhaps they bought a large television because it’s easier to see, and compared to their income, the bigger television’s cost was a non-issue, and their vision isn’t getting any better.
Really, your complaints don’t sound like they’re about your parents living responsibly, it sounds like there are other unresolved issues and this is how they’re presenting themselves. You are unhappy at the decisions they’ve made, but really, they’re not YOUR decisions to make.
Did they honestly say “I will be an unfulfilled person if I don’t have a BIG television”? You mention that you hardly ever watch television any more…that’s fine, but what you’re not accepting is that what is important to you is not necessarily the same thing as what is important to them. you might as well go off on their tendency to vote Republican, or eat meat, or attend church, or watch sports…or HUNDREDS of other life choices you might not agree with.
More than anything else, I see a lack of empathy for them. (Granted, they may be Hitler incarnate, I don’t have enough info to judge)
monstro, I’m totally with you on this subject. Everybody can and should do as they like, but a small house offers cosiness and… I don’t know how to say it, that everything is overseeable? I love the outlay of your home.
I said our home is 1300 square feet, but half of that is the (furnised) basement. The lower floor has windows on one side, though. I’m always surprised that people don’t think of lofts and basements as part of their houses.
I have calculated how much mortgage I would have to pay if i had a bigger house with a guest room. It is infinitely more economical to just pay for a hotel room or a B&B whenever you have guests over. Or to pay for space in a bar/church those few times in your life that one may want to host a big gathering.
Stuff is enslaving us, and it is important that your house doesn’t facilitate the gathering of unused stuff.
One more thing, If you are building your home: buy and read this bookand talk it over with your contractor. It will make your dream house even better, in lessenign housework and maintenance.
I think the word you were looking for may have been “survey”. With a small house it’s easy to just look around and verify that everything’s fine - or locate the things that need fixing. The bigger the house, the longer that takes.
I’ve had the mainstream philosophy blasted at me for 33 years. I’m sick of it and would like to get away from it, yes. Why is that so wrong?
Did you read what I wrote? I said “if”. “If” they can’t be happy without a big-screened TV, then I see that as a problem. They went years without a big-screened TV (and no, they have no vision problems). If they want a TV and they have to live with me for the long-term, I’ll break down and buy a TV for them. A 15" inch. And if they want cable, let them pony up for the bill. Why is that so wrong? If the tables were turned and I was bumming off of them, they’d demand I do the same. Being their daughter does not mean following their every wish and command. I don’t care how old they are.
No, their vision is fine. And you know what? There are plenty of near-sighted people who do fine without a giant TV screen! You know why? Because they can’t afford one. If my parents are living with me and demand that I get a big-screen TV, I’m telling them that they can buy it with their own money. I’ll buy them something reasonable, that won’t suck up all the fossil fuels in Virginia. Again, why does that make me such a bad person?
I don’t like their overconsumption, but if we were talking about 40 or 50 year olds in perfect health, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Instead, we’re talking about people heading towards their mid and upper 60s, and every month there’s a new physical health issue. They don’t whine about them; they just casually bring it up. Just like they’ll casually bring up the $5K they had to plop down to fix the heating system, or the $2K they had to plop down to fix the swimming pool pump. No, they haven’t asked me to lift a finger and for this I’m grateful. But I’m just waiting for that phone call, that frantic one in the middle of the night from my mother, telling me that Daddy has died. My mother has no retirement income. She cannot afford that house, nor all the possessions she racked up on her husband’s credit card. So that phone call will not just be a “casual” one. It will be a “Come HELP NOW!!”
I’m simply saying that this is avoidable. That this mess is not inevitable, but I see no effort on their part to stop it.
You’re reading way more into my posts than is warranted.
I’m agnostic; I have no problem with their Christianity. But if they come to live with me, I will not be going to church with them. I will take them to church, but I will not attend services with them. Does that make me a mean person?
I do not go out to eat every night. They do. If they come live with me and suggest we go out every night, I will decline. They are free to go and do what they want, and again, I’ll be the good daughter and take them where they want to go. But I will not be spending $15 every night for dinner, even if I can afford it. Does that not make me a mean person?
They are free to do whatever they want as long as they don’t expect me to shoulder any of the costs. I’ll take on the costs that I feel are absolutely necessary, but that’s it. They’ve had their Disney Land. Their dream house and lap of luxury. If they live with me, I won’t be indulging them. I will love them with all of my heart, however you might think it’s cold and cruel. But I will not go bankrupt just to please them.
What empathy do they deserve? Really? You’re acting like they are just poor suffering souls who’s lifestyles have no consequences on others. They aren’t poor, they aren’t suffering, and their lifestyles really do have real-life consequences. Simply acknowledging this does not make me non-empathetic. It makes me no-nosense.
I was using “dude” generally; I actually didn’t know if you were a woman or a man.
I can honestly say that in every single 5k+ square foot home I’ve been in that I’ve never ever seen what you’ve described going on - the TV thing, that is. Again, I think it’s your own personal family stuff that’s clouding the issue.
I can’t speak for Chefguy, but it doesn’t seem completely standardized 'round here. For the most part if the basement is “finished” - walls aren’t exposed concrete or insulation or rock or whatever, flooring is something other than just poured concrete, and measures have been taken to be sure it won’t flood and is “dry”, lighting is established - it is included as part of the square footage. People run into trouble when they do include it as square footage and it’s not “finished”.
I see all of your points, and I agree - you should not have to subsidize their lifestyle. If they move in with you, and can’t afford the goodies, I see no reason why you should pony up for them.
I just don’t see why you’re so *angry *about it. That makes it seems like there are other, unacknowledged issues there.
Monstro: are you angry about it? Or is the Internet’s inherent lack of nuance and expressionism leading people to see and read anger into what is just exasperated venting (similar, but two different things)?
I’m frustrated. I don’t understand this sudden “Don’t be judgmental!” attitude, especially when I’m talking about family members that may one day rely on me for assistance. I don’t like judgmental or self-righteous people either, but I do know right from wrong. I do know excessive from non-excessive, and ridiculous from non-ridiculous. Seems like people think I’m some of heartless monster because I don’t want my parents’ self-imposed problems spilling on me. I don’t get it.
I’m not really angry at my parents, but I do wish they would be more self-aware. And I think I will be angry when I get the “COME HELP NOW” call and I’m expected to help Mommy (or Daddy) do something with a ginormous house and all those things. But I think this is a natural feeling…the feeling that I’m being called to do a massive undertaking that will make stress levels–mine and others–worse. Of course it’s what adult children are expected to do, eventually. But I shouldn’t be villified for expressing a natural emotion.
I get it. I would like to point out that “excessive”, "non-excessive, “ridiculous” and “non-ridiculous” are not exact things, and therefore you’re being just as judgmental as anyone else.
That’s true to a point, but I’d say the word “ridiculous” is more judgemental than the word “excessive” - monstro has described some things her parents are doing that are definitely excessive - it’s objective, not subjective.
On the subject of stuff - the video “The Story of Stuff” and the book "The Story of Stuff.
Probably you should. It will remove you from the future problems that you’re obsessing about.
Whelp, I think the issue is more one of philosophy than anything else. For better or worse, your parents have a different view on ‘commercialism’ than you do…the good news is: it will only impact you when they lean on you for support…if at all, it may fall to your other three siblings when the time comes.
The problem, as I see it, is that in this country, they’re just as free to live their lifestyle as you are yours. It doesn’t make sense for them to curtail their life sooner then they have to. If the issue is that they’re spending your inheritance…well, that’s their prerogative, it’s their money. In this day and age, it’s more likely that they’ll end up liquidating their assets, and it’ll all be sucked up in assisted living before you even get a crack at it. That’s kinda sad, but it’s becoming more and more of a reality all the time.
Wasting your time being angry about it, when it may or may not happen, is wasted calories. They’re not going to see the light and change their ways unless something drastic happens. In my mother’s case, her husband died suddenly and young. Her father died 18 months later, and she had to deal with all of the details of both deaths. Based on that experience, she produced a tight little packet of documentation so that when she shuffles off, a lot of the detailwork is done for me. I won’t really appreciate that until once of my less prepared relatives passes away, but I’m sure I’m going to be grateful.
I do not, however, expect to get much of an inheritance. Such is the way of my family.
Or they can lean on me financially, but not physically. I don’t plan on upgrading my lifestyle to match theirs, but that doesn’t mean I won’t help a sibling who decides to take them in, or that I won’t help pay rent on a retirement home or small apartment. I feel like I keep saying this, but here it goes again: I love my parents. I would never abandon them, even if their problems were self-induced. But that does not mean I have to be happy about helping them. I will certainly put on my sunshine happy smily-face in front of them (Don’t worry, Mommy. I’ll help pay down this credit card. You just sit there and watch your HGTV program for the eleventy-billionth time). It’s how I was raised…to be “nice”. But I’m not going to pretend it won’t hurt or tell myself that my parents did a good job with their retirement.
If we continue with this mentality…that we’re all entitled to do whatever we want to do, no matter how much sense it makes (sorry, but a 3500 sq ft house for two senior citizens makes no sense to me)–then we will not have anything left to enjoy. There has to be a limit. And of course it makes sense for people to curtail their lives. It’s called being responsible. Just because a person hits retirement age does not free them from being responsible. If anything, it should make them MORE responsible.
(Perhaps there is some bitterness in me. My parents didn’t save any money for their kids’ college tuitions. We grew up on the bad side of town, having to take a bus crosstown to go to “good schools”. Home burgularies were common place. We never got an allowance or traveled beyond Gary, Indiana and Myrtle Beach, SC. If I wanted a new pair of shoes as a teenager, I practically had to draw up a prospectus…only to then make do with an ugly generic. So I guess I look at how my parents upgraded their lives the very first moment all their kids went off on their own, and I can’t help but think “Well, I guess they really didn’t want to spoil us, huh?” I’m sure they did sacrifice for us and now they feel they’re getting what they “deserve”. But I wonder if they’re thinking how their constant self-rewarding will eventually affect us. I hope they’re thinking about us. Sometimes I don’t know.)
I hope that it will go towards assisted living, and not to all the debt they’ve accrued. My parents own two houses. They just spent a fortune (through refinancing) to renovate the other house (the one the whole family grew up in back in the day). But after four months they cannot find a tenant who’s willing to subsidize the bright yellow Home and Garden extravaganza. So they have two mortgages that they’re paying, plus credit card debt, a motorcycle note, two car notes, and they just bought a time share. A time share. All I can hope for is that vacationing away from Shorter, AL and Buloxi, MS will help them break their addiction to casinos.
I don’t begrudge anyone, most of all my family, the comforts of life. No one in my family has ever slacked off or been leeches, and my parents rose up out of poverty to live a lifestyle their parents could never even dream of. And I’m glad that they are comfortable and not suffering in some hole in the wall. But when is it appropriate to say “Stop the presses. Enough is ENOUGH!” As a person whose life may potentially be affected by all this spendthriftiness, don’t I have the right to clear my throat and ask about my parents’ plans for the future? Or is that too disrespectful and judgmental? I just wanna know.
It’s strange. Everyone’s always accusing me of being angry on the Dope, but I rarely feel this way. Maybe I need to put in more smilies and hearts whenever I post on this board.
We have PLENTY of house - but we are a family of four. We have honestly, more house than we need or use.
I also own a small house that my brother in law lives in - its about 600 sq ft. Its just him and a dog and its a lot of space (although the kitchen is sub par - he could use more kitchen). It also has a full basement for his crap and a garage.
I think the American thing with big houses is really an extension of the American thing with our crap. I have stuff coming out of my ears, and need somewhere to stick it. And yet I long for the days when I could move in a small uhaul. (but then I had no children, and far less crap).