How can a Jew argue with God...and win?

[Captain_Amazing]

@C K Dexter Haven

Back to the OP, and regardless of this particular bit of Talmud, Judaism has always taught that a Jew should wrestle with God. We’ve had the citation of Abraham, arguing with God to save Sodom., and Jonah (who loses his argument) and Job (who loses his argument.) But the tradition is to argue, especially in the face of perceived injustice. I would add that the Israelites in Egypt “cry out” to God, and I like to think that their crying out was partly a complaint: what happened to God’s promises?

Even people who have done wrong argue with God. What does Adam say when God asks him why he ate the fruit of the tree of Good and Evil? “The woman who You gave to me gave me the fruit, and I ate it.” And Eve says, “The serpent [who You made] tricked me and I ate it.”

[Zahava424]

@Lynwood Slim

But . . . that is tough position for Rabbi Eliezer: to know you are right, that your colleagues are wrong, and they outvote you out of jealousy and spite . . . and you have to submit.

(Bolding mine)

Sorry to be picky, but I do have to take issue with this. Regardless of how you view the decision rendered, it’s unfair to say that it was done so out of “jealousy and spite.” R’ Gamliel may have been overzealous in asserting his power, but the court was well-intentioned. It was a tough spot for R’ Eliezer, no question, but I don’t think it’s right to assume that the Rabbis put him there for kicks.

[SandyHook]

I have nothing to add to this discussion. But I did notice that a “slacka$$” in another forum had been lamenting losing his charter membership status. As I haven’t been posting much lately I wanted to check on mine.

So, carry on.

[Atticus_Finch]

I’ve been away for a little while, and hadn’t got a chance to see this extremely learned discussion! Certainly haven’t been chased out of the thread.

Thanks to all for your help, and yes, DSeid I hope I now do understand Jews’ relationship with God a little better.

[Atticus_Finch]

Addendum - I’m bookmarking this thread as proof of why this place rocks.

A Simpsons quote:
Bart, looking out of a car in New York, sees a pair of rabbis walking along the street. He says “Hey, look, it’s ZZ Top”, leans out the window and yells “You guys rock!”. One rabbi says to the other, “Eh, maybe just a little”…

[Lynwood_Slim]

I am bit surprised by your taking exception to my description of CJ. Both CJ and OJ hold that the needs of the hour can require an abrogation of law – witness the usage of the warrants “kum aseh” and “shev al ta’aseh”
I agree that Jews do and should argue with God. We have no disagreement there. I was just bring up a davar acher to the usualy interpretion to the Achnai story.
“The moral is: when we see injustice, we should not simply shrug our shoulders, Pangloss-like, and say, “It’s God’s will.” We have the right – indeed, the obligation – to challenge God about injustice on earth.”

That is precisely my point regarding the Achnai story: R. Eliezer is being treating unjustly – my evidence for has argued extensively in this thread.

“This is also the Jewish answer (or one of them) to why there is evil in the world, when God could stop it. To stop all evil would be to abrogate human free will, and this would go against God’s plan.”

I think the Kabbalah (esp. Lurianic) offers a better answer.

[Lynwood_Slim]

@Zahava424

(Bolding mine)

Sorry to be picky, but I do have to take issue with this. Regardless of how you view the decision rendered, it’s unfair to say that it was done so out of “jealousy and spite.” R’ Gamliel may have been overzealous in asserting his power, but the court was well-intentioned. It was a tough spot for R’ Eliezer, no question, but I don’t think it’s right to assume that the Rabbis put him there for kicks.

My evidence for “jealousy and spite” is that this sugiya is concerned with ona’ah, fraud with words. If not jealousy and spite, to what do you attribute the motivation for their “ona’ah”. We readers know that God agrees with R. Eliezer, and that Rabban Gamliel is killed for letter this humiliating of R. Eliezer go forth.

I would be interesting in known what you think their motivations were in fraudulent argument, excommunicating him, destroying all kelim ever declared kosher by him, etc.

[Lynwood_Slim]

@Zahava424

(Bolding mine)

Sorry to be picky, but I do have to take issue with this. Regardless of how you view the decision rendered, it’s unfair to say that it was done so out of “jealousy and spite.” R’ Gamliel may have been overzealous in asserting his power, but the court was well-intentioned. It was a tough spot for R’ Eliezer, no question, but I don’t think it’s right to assume that the Rabbis put him there for kicks.

My evidence for “jealousy and spite” is that this sugiya is concerned with ona’ah, fraud with words. If not jealousy and spite, to what do you attribute the motivation for their “ona’ah”. We readers know that God agrees with R. Eliezer, and that Rabban Gamliel is killed for letter this humiliating of R. Eliezer go forth.

I would be interested in knowing what you think their motivations were in fraudulent argument, excommunicating him, destroying all kelim ever declared kosher by him, etc.