In some of the Duggar threads and in the comments I’ve been seeing all over the Internet, there’s been an attitude of “teen boys are pervy” or “kids mess up.” To me, that’s just been really odd, because it’s just so foreign to my own experience. I grew up with a younger brother, and maybe my experiences would be different if I had an older brother…but to me these transgressions just seem beyond the pale. Is this just me? What’s “normal” when it comes to…this sort of thing?
I’m thinking of posts like this:
I know teens are horny, but so horny they’ll hump their sisters or cop a feel? Am I so off base?
Excellent username/post combo. Meanwhile, I grew up with an older sister (two, actually, but the older wasn’t much interested in me however you slice it) and she was the one who was all for a spot of incestuous exploration; so it’s not just teen boys who are pervy.
I don’t have any experience with it myself but a semi well-known sociology professor once told our class that casual sex play among opposite sex siblings, especially those close in age, is extremely common. Definitive statistics are hard to compile because of the subject matter and the tendency for it never to be reported to anyone. I have also known females that admitted that they either participated in it or witnessed it themselves. My personal opinion is that it is common and, while not something to be taken lightly if someone truly feels they are a victim, there is also a tendency for others to overreact and judge overly harshly some events that are common and don’t cause any lasting harm. In the Duggar case, the sisters were fully clothed, don’t remember it at all and claim that they never suffered any damage from it. Josh Duggar was still a child living in a family that prevented access to even basic sexual education himself.
I have two older brothers and I don’t recall either of them ever touching me inappropriately. I’m sure if I asked my brothers they would say they had other outlets for satisfying their curiosity about girls.
I just cannot wrap my head around a 14-year-old copping a feel on a 5-year-old. I think that goes way beyond any definition of “normal,” even for a boy raised in a repressive environment.
Here is a short video (SFW) from an expert that covers how parents should handle sex play among opposite sex siblings. It says basically what I did but you may want to hear it from someone else:
I admit, that part seems more than a little off to me as well. I was trying to answer the question more generally about how common it is among opposite sex siblings that are usually much closer in age. I don’t have any opposite sex siblings and my kids do not either so I have to rely on what experts and other people tell me.
I know of two such cases. One between siblings of similar age (something like 6-7 and 8-9, the girl being the older one) and another with a more significant age gap (something like 9-10 and 13-14, the boy being the older one).
My guess is that it’s pretty common. Total WAG since I have neither sisters nor children.
There are lots of studies to cite and they show that it is common at least for some reasonable definitions of common. My point was that it is almost still certainly underreported. How many reputable studies are going to satisfy you before I make the effort to compile them for you?
You can easily find some of them just by Googling ‘how common is sex play among siblings’?
I don’t know the answer but I have seen something that clearly delineates between pre-pubescent curiosity and the practice among more mature teens. It may be something entirely harmless in younger children who just want to find out what people have under their clothes but once sexually maturing the motivations are considered more ominous.
I’m not agreeing with that position, but the Duggar’s case where their son was after his sisters while they slept does seem quite different from consensual activity.
I have no cites either way, but the Westermarck effect is, I understand, about attraction, whereas I suspect the sort of thing Shagnasty’s professor is talking about is more to do with curiosity.
Yes…I was wondering I think less about little kids playing doctor and more about…how normal is it for a curious or horny teenager to “cop a feel” or something. Like are there tons of women out there whose first time being felt up was by their brother, and is that something they just shrug off as “Oh, kids.” Somehow that feels upsetting to me. Maybe it’s my puritanical streak.
One problem in threads of this sort is that the term “common” has such broad meaning.
I think some of the people who say it’s “common” mean it happens in 5% of families, and some of the people who deny it’s common mean it doesn’t happen in 60% of families, leaving a lot of room for common ground in between.
I don’t think a teenager gets to use the excuse of “just playing doctor” with a toddler. Once one (or both) of the siblings has hit puberty, it’s no longer curiosity and exploration. But I wonder if the age gap hindered the Westermarck effect from taking root.
Leaving that aside, the question is whether it’s a pedophilic attraction to pre-pubescent children specifically, versus just a “crime of opportunity” based on the availability of those specific children.
I wonder if the “curiosity touching” is omni-directional, or if it’s skewed to older/younger vs. younger/older.
Especially in the Duggars case you hear that the older boy was interested in his younger siblings, and rage ensued, I wonder if the response would be different if the younger sibling started touching an older one.
It brings up a whole host of questions then: What if the younger boy did it to an older girl? What about a younger girl to an older boy? Does it matter? SHOULD it matter?
I have no real stance either way, just thinking out loud
I have a brother five years older. I could not even imagine him ever touching me inappropriately or looking at me and I wouldn’t have done anything like that to him either.
My best friend growing up though, she had a sister and half (not step-) brother who had three children together when they were both in their teens. They lived together for a while as a married couple but in their mid-twenties broke up and went on to have relationships outside the family.
I don’t see there being a bright line between these two things. Fondling a kid is precipitated by desire; if you don’t have that desire, it doesn’t matter whether there is opportunity. Which is why the vast majority of older siblings don’t do what Josh Duggar did.
One of my brothers majored in Criminal Justice. He interned for 3 summers in college with the County Attorney’s office in Pima County, Arizona - Wikipedia. So an urban, suburban, and rural county of about 1 million people.
I asked him what he learned from the experience. Shaking his head he said: “Statistically speaking, incest is normal human behavior.” He never went into a CJ-related job, partly due to what he saw those years.
