How could God let this happen?

The BBQ Pit
21

The third statement that Scylla takes offense to is not of the same style as the first two. The first two suggest that one wishes to abjugate one’s responsibilities in favour of a higher power. Ultrafilter’s interpretation of the parable is pertinent. The third, however, is suggesting that suffering is evidence that the Christian god as worshipped by many people is a logical contradiction.

It is a perfectly reasonable (if trite and overdone) argument. Now the parable is not consistent with this, since the existence of god itself is the issue, unless we accept obfusciatrist’s interpretation.

I think that this is why we have disagreement in this thread - semantically Scylla has presented us with two very different sentiments that only appear to be related.

pan

22

Maybe I missed the post referred to, but I do not remember anyone saying that they were terribly surprised that god didn’t come down in person and relieve their misery. I agree that he is not going to, and we are left to make of this world what we will.

However, I find the parable particularly glurgetastic. If god is not the relevant part of the parable, as some have stated, why use such loaded imagery? Make god a character in your little one act play, and he invariably steals the show. In this case playing the deity shirking care for his creation off on a mortal. The holy man got the right message, but he would more likely have come to the conclusion that it was up to him upon reflection of the fact that no one answered his prayer.

23

Well, I have seen the light, back to church for this atheist…

24

Trucido:

It seems to that part of the point of the parable is that your “loathing” is worthless by itself (I’d say it’s worthless in its entirety, but that’s just my opinion.)

If you see something you don’t like, or think is wrong, simply to state loudly your contempt is vanity. If you truly detest it, do something about it, otherwise simply opening your yap and bitching serves no purpose, other than to make yourself look good.

Crunchy Frog:

Yes. That’s pretty close to my interpretation, but when I say God is irrelevant to the parable, I mean that you can replace “God” with just about any athority or any bitch directed at athority know matter how vague.

“Why is it this way? It’s wrong! Why doesn’t somebody do something about it?”

Why don’t you?

That’s what the parable’s saying.

Kabbes:

Yes, but these things sound better in threes and a song must have music as well. I’d also maintain as you seem to state that the third statement is an invalid conclusion based on woeful circumstance, as it usually is.

Waverly:

Sorry you didn’t like it. I’ll be sure and mention it to the Sufis.

25

We require it of ourselves. If you wish the world to be a better place, then you are obligated to do your share to make it so. If you don’t mind if the world slides silently into a shithole, fine, but don’t complain when it does.

Why do it? To quote one of the few things Ronald Reagan ever said I agreed with, “If not us, who?”

26

That’s OK, no need to get them upset with me. As long as we are borrowing religious stories, why don’t I present the Waverly Notes version of Job’s story? Here’s a happy tale of how much god empathizes with the suffering of us puny mortals:

Job was a man of prosperity and happiness, and god was much pleased with him. One day, god met his friend satan while out touring his creation. God pulled over his golf cart and pointed out Job proudly, stating that his faith was indeed strong. Satan was not so sure, and craftily told god that Job would loose faith if misfortune befell him. God said verily “nuh uh! I will take that bet.” Then god called for his smiting stick (a handy lob wedge) and allowed Job to be tormented. His servants were murdered, his sons and daughters massacred, but god did not sweat the innocent blood because he had secured an alibi by asking satan to do the hands on destruction. Job then lost his health, his wealth, and his reputation. Through it all Job took it in stride like a good christian. God had won the bet, and was rightly satisfied… but satan didn’t mind, he had after all so enjoyed inflicting the torments.

I should probably add that I was raised catholic, and don’t just hurl criticism of the church from left field. Just to restate: cursing god will accomplish nothing, I think we have all agreed that it is up to us to cope with the world we live in no matter how unfair it seems. But I take exception to statements that hint that it is ‘god’s plan’, or He has designed it this way, or even that He sends holy men down from hilltops to help.

27

Um…might want to check the date on that story…

28

So, hardygrrl is supposed to do exactly what about her friend’s MS? And if she can’t cure MS, she should just quit whining about it because she’s just trying to make herself looks good?

Look, life is not fair, I think everyone understands that. But sometimes Really Bad Shit happens, and I don’t think it’s healthy or productive to personally shoulder the responsibility for not curing cancer when a loved one falls ill, or to utterly refrain from expressing your unhappiness or railing against the world if that’s what you feel like doing. Don’t wallow in it, sure, but your requirements seem a wee bit unreasonable. Even if you do something to help the world in addition to bitching (and how do you know these people haven’t?), donations to charity and activism will not cure a friend’s MS, utterly erase the trauma of child abuse, prevent a lighting bolt from striking a toddler dead, or cause your father’s cancer to disappear. So even if you try your hardest, Really Bad Shit will happen, and not one human, probably not even all humans can stop it (though, presumably, the Big G could).

29

Yeah, because like way too many people, God was an acceptably grumpy person until it had children. Then it got all loving and sappy and crap like that.

30

Ah yes, Job. Interesting story. An interesting take as well.

Glad you identify it as a parable.

The nice things about parables is that they only exist to make a certain specific point. There’s no use deconstructing them, because everything in them except the specific point is meaningless.

You seem to take issue with the meaningless aspects of the parable and ignore the actual point.

The point of course occurs when Job does start to get a little pissed off (gotta admit those boils must have been a bitc, so I can’t say I blame him. It’s hard to be pious when your ass is covered with suppurating boils. Trust me. I know.) He bitches at length to God.

God answers him as well:

“Where were you when I made Heaven and Earth?”

I interpret the book of Job as a rant against bitching as well. The point being even if you do have something really worth bitching about, it’s not gonna help, and that secondly your opinions oughtta be independant of circumstance.

31

Point taken:D, though I still think his faith could be described that way if you take away the literal ‘follower of Christ’ meaning. In this case perhaps “devoted man of Yahweh” could be used, but Waverly Notes™ are known for sarcasm, not accuracy.

32

Scylla: We are not so far off, you and I. I don’t condone whining and agree that people must cope in their own way. I just don’t think feelings of shock and anger are out of place when things happen beyond our control, just so long as one doesn’t wallow in self-pity. Where we truly diverge seems to be in matters of faith, and it is pointless to argue them. Cheers.

33

I find the real point of Job (I wish I had known as a child that I was supposed to just ignore the details I didn’t like and find the true meaning that I did like) is that gods are cruel have no real sympathy for individuals, and that the Judeo-Christian god is not only unwilling to intervene to abate suffering but is willing to make side bets with those who cause suffering.

But maybe that’s me.

And Chum, it is not true to say that there is no way to know whether god exists. There is no way to know with certainty that god doesn’t exist. There are many ways to know with much certainty that it does exist. First of all, if god wants our worship, it should have created us to possess the certain knowledge of its existence. Really, that is just fair. It could leave us with free will on how to respond to the knowledge, but to without the knowledge just isn’t right.

Having created us the way it did, it could appear daily at sunrise and hold counsel. Or, it could take the form of George Burns, join me in the shower and perform acts that made its existence unavoidable.

34

Gaudere:

Bitching only helps the bitchee.

Personally, I’m not above a little gratuitous bitching when “the fit hits the Shan.”

More often than not, we’ve substituted the bitching for actually doing something. As if bitching about it was enough.

Personally, I’d rather not use hardygirl as a specific example. While her thread counts as a general bitch, I wasn’t attcking her specifically.

I’d also bet it doesn’t apply to her. I’ll bet she is doing something about it, specifically being a supportive and good friend during a tough time.

I’ll use an incident from my life though:

My wife had a placenta previa with my daughter. The placenta blocked the cervix, and it partially detached, causing bleeding.

My wife spent the last two weeks of her pregnancy in the hospital, trying to lie motionless.

I don’t think it occured to either her or myself to try to cast blame for what had happened. We just dealt with it.
(Actually my wife pretty much just dealt with it, all I did was worry and read out loud this horrible book called Riders “Jake the gypsy could tame any horse… and any woman” Makes Dannielle Steele seem like a textbook, but she liked it.")

So we did do something about it. It’s not in my power to wave a magic wand and make all bad things go away. This is the really real world after all.

But there are things that can be done for most circumstances.

An excellent example might be the former CEO of INTEL, Andy Grove.

When diagnosed with a particularly virulent form of cancer, Andy took a leave of absence from Intel, and studied up on it. Andy became in his words: “a scholar” on this form of cancer. An expert is simply somebody who knows a great deal about a subject. A scholar on the other hand is somebody who knows everything that is available to know about a subject.

Andy used his knowledge to design his own course of treatment, found a Doctor to implement it, beat the cancer and returned to work.

Not all such stories have such a happy ending, but I think the important point is that Andy did something about his circumstances. He wasn’t merely a spectator, he got involved, took resposnibility and did something. had it worked out differently I’d still say he did the right thing.

35

Waverly:

Really?

I don’t recall bringing my personal faith, or lack thereof into this debate.

But seeing as you claim we differ, I’ll feed you my articles of faith, so you know what it is you’re differing with.

I’m a lapsed Catholic. I don’t really beleive in God, but I don’t really disbelieve either. It’s not like I’m going to know although his existence seems unlikely, and if he does exist we’ve most likely go it all wrong with how we perceive him anyway.

I’ve decided it’s kind of a moot point. Positing for a moment, a just, benevolent, and loving God, who nevertheless allows bad stuff to happen (probably for free-will and growth reasons, but who the hell knows?) It seems to me that my behavior is going to be the same whether he exists or not. His existence doesn’t change my ethics or my personal beleifs, nor does his nonexistence.

So, God’s existence doesn’t really matter one way or the other. There are moments when it’s nice to think I’ll go to heaven when I die, and that God is watching over me, and it’s a nice psychological crutch when you feel like using it.

Maybe it’s true, but probably not. Anyway I think a lot of the ethics of religion (not necessarily the behavior of the religious,) are good ethics.

I think that being an atheist is a tough and unrewarding route as well, so I just kind of hem and haw in the middle ground.

I also think that atheism gets used as an excuse for poor ethical behavior just as much as Fundies justify their BS through faith, so I really don’t see any advantage or necessity to having a firm religious stance. Certainly, I’ll find out the answer, but hopefully not for a while.

36

Three quotes decrying god that you took issue with and one parable in the OP led me to come to the conclusion that in addition to being pissed off by whining, you were perturbed by anti-christian sentiments. That is the only facet of your faith that I may have made assumptions regarding. I didn’t really need you to recite your own personal act of contrition. And yes, we still seem to differ a bit.

37

And that is where you are in error, young grasshopper :wink:

38

Act of contrition?

do you mean Article of faith? It doesn’t make any sense the way you said it.

39

What? Bitching only helped the person being bitched at? I don’t think you meant to say that. :wink: The person who bitches is the “bitcher.” The recipient of the bitch (why am I suddenly thinking of people being traded for a pack of smokes?) is the “bitchee.”

Apparently, you at least think that bitching helps the person who bitches. If that is so, it at least does some good; if bitching about cancer helps the people with cancer, are you going to call them selfish and whiny?
The bitching you complain about comes from a deep-seated sense of justice; a belief that senseless death and pain are not “right.” Maybe you consider it a “sense of entitlement” to believe that it is somehow “not fair” for a child to be stricken with a horrible disease. And I’d agree, it is a sense of entitlement. We feel life should be better than it is–and that’s the belief you NEED to make it better.

I agree, it is not as productive to “just” whine, unless the whining itself can improve things and there is nothing else to do. I think everyone can agree that just whining rarely does as much good as taking action, but I think you are discounting the sense of outrage that can inspire both whining and action. Bitching can help: it can be cathartic, it can inspire others or yourself to action, it reinforces our belief that things should be better than they are, it can help others to empathize.

(Also, I doubt that the comments you have seen are posted by people who simply sit on their duffs and whine all day. So I’m not sure who you’re bitching at. If it’s people who don’t post on this board, your bitching here is about as useful as the complaints you decry.)

40

Ya know, this thread sounds a lot more like a Great Debate than a Pit thread. Perhaps it should be moved, if Scylla agrees. Maybe it would get some interesting responses from those who don’t frequent the Pit.

The question I had in the other thread, which I don’t think has been touched on here is the following:

If a child of mine (or even a perfect stranger for that matter) has a horrible problem (disease, whatever) that is making that person suffer, and I can easily solve that problem without any extraordinary effort, and nobody else can solve it but me, then I am an utter and perfect prick if I do not solve that problem and relieve that person’s suffering. I am held to a particular moral standard by society, one that I would not be living up to if I stood by and did nothing.

What I find strange is that those who believe in God must obviously hold their God to a lower moral standard than the standard regular folks are expected to live up to. Why is it that when I let bad shit happen that I can prevent, I’m an asshole and maybe even a criminal, but when God lets bad shit happen, it’s OK?

I am an atheist, and any explanation I’ve ever heard for this always sounds like people trying desperately to reconcile a false belief in a loving God with what is apparent in the world around us; a world that a loving God has nothing to do with, and never did.