How could God let this happen?

The BBQ Pit
41

Gaudere:

Umm. yeah. Bitcher, not bitchee. That’s what I meant.

I’m not so sure I agree though. It seems to me that the complaint seems to occur in lieu of action rather often, and I almost always read those kind of threads and general complaints as a “somebody else should have done something, or it shouldn’t be that way and I’m venting without purpose” kind of thing.

Now I understand the need to rant, and I’ve got nothing against the “The septic tank pump truck just exploded on my front lawn and I had to spend all day cleaning it up,” kind of thing. I figure that person’s entitled to bitch at length, but a rant or general complaint presented without potential solution or call to action seems pretty much worthless.

42

I’d like to second the points made by Gaudere, and add that for many believers, the occasional cursing at God is a healthy part of faith (eh, I was educated by Jesuits).

Since the Pit is a good place to blow off steam, I see no reason to assume that posters who have taken the opportunity to vent a little at the big guy haven’t followed it up by actively doing things (the Lord’s work, according to your parable) to make the world a better place.

43

Revtime:

I have no complaint if a moderator wishes to move the thread.

Well, it kind of goes back to the Job thing of “where were you when I made heaven and earth?”

Positing God, we don’t know his nature, his mind, or his capabilities. We just guess. Perhaps of all possible universes this is the best. I dunno. Adversity makes us better, so I guess a universe without adversity might remove free-will. I dunno. Some suffering might be a “greater good,” kind of thing where one child’s horrible untimely death ultimately allows the world to be a better place.

Not being God, I’m not too sure what rationale and ethical standards apply to him. Certainly not the same ones that I apply to old nonomniscient, nonomnipotent me. That’s for sure.

44

Since there seems to be a fair amount of ‘how could there be a loving God, given the suffering in the world’ sentiment, I thought I’d ask: what’s the alternative? How would you have the world work differently, if you were anointed God?

I’ve opened a GD thread for that purpose. Feel free to head on over.

45

Scylla:

I believe it was the Apostle’s Creed that I meant to name. You know, it goes like:
Oh Lord, please don’t burn us,
Don’t grill or toast your flock,
Don’t put us on the barbecue,
Or simmer us in stock,
Don’t braise or bake or boil us,
Or stir-fry us in a wok…
Oh please don’t lightly poach us,
Or baste us with hot fat,
Don’t fricassee or roast us,
Or boil us in a vat,
And please don’t stick thy servants Lord,
In a Rotissomat…
Erm perhaps not… it’s the one that begins “I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth…” etc. And now that I have egregiously stolen from Monty Python, spouted heresy, disappointed my Sunday school teacher, hijacked your rant, and in all likely hood caused the baby Jesus to cry, I will let you folks get it back on track.

46

Waverly:

It is not enough to recognize your sins. You must also repent. may I suggest an Act of Contrition.

47

**Herein lies the problem. Not that you disagree with me, god knows everyone does that-LOL! but if you choose the Crowley view of the universe (“Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law”)you are in fact the problem.(rhetorically speaking, I’m not addressing you, chum) The social responsibility is the issue, it’s not about god, it’s not about a supreme being, it’s not about karma. It’s about humanity. Are you human?

**
Humans require it of themselves. Hence the term humane. I’m not here to judge those who don’t care about their fellow human beings. hell, it’s okay with me if you take the easier road- sometimes I think I’m stupid not to.I have chosen to try to do my part. I am constantly irritated by a government who tells me I must contribute, as if I’m not contributing enough already. I’m REALLY irritated by people who have decided not to dirty their own hands, but instead to pay more taxes to a goverment which will by definition mismanage those funds, and I am downright INFURIATED by those same people insisting that I do the same.

**Because I was raised with a strong sense of social responsibility. As was my father before me, as was his father,etc. as will my children be.

I have no argument with that. Even more reason to be as humane as you can be. If there is no reward nor retribution after death, why not try to increase the quality of other’s lives, if that’s all you believe they get? If you strongly believe that when you die, you are just dead, and that’s that, how sad is it that you are surrounded by people who are leading hopeless and painful lives and you are making no effort to help, though the power is in your hands? Again, speaking rhetorically here.

b.

48

The point of the Job story is that blaming God for your problems is supremely unhelpful. Unfair things happen. Blaming God for that is to assume that the universe was (or should have been) arranged for your personal benefit. That pretty childish.

We evolved the emotion of anger for a reason. It can be appropriate when directed against other humans, but anthropomophizing the universe and then getting angry at it is kind of delusional.

Since we’re discussing parables, I’d like to bring up the book-length parable Moby Dick. Ahab hates the whale, which represents God. But his hate simply leads to destruction. Not because God punishes him, but as a consequence of Ahab’s inhumane actions. Hating God/the whale/nature leads to destruction because they are utterly impersonal and indifferent forces.

49

But god actively works to make Job’s life more miserable. That’s somewhat rude. In fact, if god were to come around here I think I’d kick its ass for that.

50

Obfuscationist, I think you are getting hung up on the specifics of the Job story. Sure, it has a God character who causes Job misery. But we could easily replace the “God” character with the impersonal forces of nature. And the truth is that God doesn’t cause us to suffer, because there probably is no such entity. We suffer anyway, but blaming God or blaming nature and getting angry doesn’t help. Before you were suffering, now you are suffering and angry. You just doubled your misfortune rather than improved it.

51

Clearly, different people will get different things from a parable. Both “it’s useless to bitch” and “the God of the Old Testament was a prick” are both valid conclusions.

52

Yes, you can retell biblical stories in such a way that certain points remain the same while changing other points to suit you. But if you are going to tell a bible story you have accept that the bible represents God as a specific entity with specific characteristics.

I can reform the stories such that god is a tree, but then it isn’t the Job story.

Also, don’t forget that the god of the New Testament is a prick too.

53

I don’t see the comparison. A tornado doesn’t cause death and destruction just to make a point. God deliberately and repeatedly tormented Job; not surprisingly, Job took it personally.

54

From what I remember of the Job story is that he did sin after he was tormented, too much pride. I always thought the moral of the story was that no one ever goes through life without being tempted to sin.

obfusciatrist who are you comparing god to?

55

Why is there war and suffering? How could God let Frank McVeigh kill all those people?

I want a God who controls all of our actions in exactly the same way so we all have the same moral outlook on life and there will never be war or crime or torture or any kind of varying opinions ever again.

That would be fun!

56

But here goes.

I realize I’m getting here kinda late, but look folks, people get angry. It’s part of our make-up, it’s a critical phase in the process of dealing with anything seriously bad. God can’t protect us from the Universe if he expects us to grow up. We have to learn to take the good and the bad in stride. Unless we are allowed to experience crappy situations, we’ll remain as children forever. Just as a parent has to take the training wheels off sooner or later, God’s gotta let us do our thing, and that means we’re gonna have some pain. Sometimes, lots and lots of pain. When it hits the fan, when Bad Things happen to Good People Who Don’t Deserve It, there’s going to be ANGER. Now, then: What to do with that anger?

We can aim it ourselves or each other, but that’s destructive, unless that person or group actually has something to answer for. We can aim it at inanimate objects, or at a disease, a germ, a dumb animal, but that’s generally useless and unsatisfying. Or, we can aim it at God. Why not? God’s big enough to take it. He can hanndle all the spleen this little planet can produce, and not have it affect him at all, one way or another. It’s not unlike a child gettting angry at a parent when they fall down. This kid’s hurt and embarased, and is angry about it. Where does that anger go? The first safe direction. Frequently, that’s at the parent. Are parents offended? Nope. They smother their fond smile and handle the hurt. Why would God be any different? Are we not made in his image?

And that’s the funny thing about it. Once we’ve gotten angry, we can go on with the rest of the coping, the sorrow, the mourning for lost opportunites, friends, or whatever has been taken from us. Eventually, the pain is soothed, or at least diminished, and we can get on with our lives. Railling at God along the way doesn’t hurt God, nor affect our place in the universe. Eventually, we get over it, and things move on. But don’t let it shake your faith, any more than stumbles and skinned knees should affect the faith a child holds for it’s parents.

For those of you who don’t have a diety, it’s cool. You’d still have to create some personification at which to direct anger, so why not call it “God”? It’s a useful and satisfying image, so go for it.

Either way, have your say, pitch your bitch, and get on with life.

57

Not a who. I’m comparing it to the image people project of it. If it wants to be known as a compassionate god, it should try to not be such a prick.

But if you want a comparison: To my dog (if I had one) I would have near godlike powers (bow down before the cupboard of infinite dog food). Yet if I made the same demands on the dog that god makes on humans and treated my dog in the same way as god treats humans, then the wacko animal lovers on this board would be equating me to Hitler and advocating that sharp things be caused to penetrate my rectum.

Fortunately, the prickishness of god is somewhat ameliorated by its non-existence.

58

Who is this Frank McVeigh of whom you speak?

There are some who call him… Tim?

B.

Sorry, couldn’t resist. I knew what you meant, pnuk.