How did Feminism become synonymous with hating men in the pop culture mindset?

Great Debates
61

Yeah, Marc, Deirdre McCloskey’s anecdote probably wasn’t the best example to cite of unenlightened transwomen, but it was the only one to come to mind as I was writing off the top of my head. Deirdre is a conservative and a Christian from Iowa, so she probably has no problem with traditional Ozzie & Harriet gender roles, for all I know. She is no feminist. No, I totally agree with you, feminism is not about barring women from sports or keeping women in the kitchen, of course! Feminism got Title IX passed, making women’s sports feasible in the USA on a national scale. Feminism got women out of the kitchen and encouraged men to pull their own weight in housework. The only point I was making with this is, when you do have a situation in Iowa where the women are all in the kitchen and the transwomen are all sitting around acting like stereotypical guys, not lifting a finger, then they are not being true to who they say they are. Frankly, they look just like unenlightened male chauvinists when they behave like that.

Saying that chauvinist attitudes exist unconsciously in men as long as they’re unexamined is not the same as calling all men “assholes.” By misrepresenting my argument, it’s like you’re dismissing out of hand the fact that male chauvinism is an obstacle to achieving full equality for women.

I am not attacking men for being men. You are human beings the same as anyone, with all the beauty, tenderness, foibles, and flaws as women have. My father is one of the most excellent men I’ve ever known in my life. I feel very fortunate to have been born to him and raised by him. He has certain limitations, he’s old now and too set in his ways, but I have no complaints about how he raised me. He treated my mother very well given the era he grew up in, and he raised my sisters to be autonomous individuals, sent them to college. He did the very best he could. I love my father and hold him in such high regard, how could anyone accuse me of man-hating?

It’s the male chauvinist attitude, and the system based upon it, that’s the problem. Criticizing it is not the same as hating men. I don’t wish evil on anyone, I want the best for men, and I think it would be beneficial for them to free themselves of the whole chauvinist system. In a society where men oppress women, you will also find some men oppressing other men. The only “man” I’m attacking is the one made of straw that you used to misrepresent my argument.

As I said to catsix above, I’m not denying the personal truth of anyone’s experience. If some of you have had unpleasant run-ins with man-haters, then so you have. My contention is that it isn’t representative of feminism any more than Pat Robertson stands for Christianity. If I were Christian, I’d be very clear that Robertson does not speak for me, like Mr. Rabin said so eloquently to Israeli fundamentalists, “Sensible Judaism spits you out.” Christians should tell Robertson and his ilk “Sensible Christianity spits you out,” and Muslims should tell Bin Ladin and the Wahhabis, “Sensible Islam spits you out.” I say to anyone within feminism who preaches hatred, “Sensible feminism spits you out.” The thing is, they are a small minority within feminism.

You might as well ask what’s wrong with African-Americans that some of them hate Whitey.

62

Surely you’ve heard of the Glen Ridge rape case? It was huge-a mentally retarded teenager who was lured into the basement rec room of one of the accused-where she was sexually assaulted with, among other things, a broomstick?

While the girl in question was not forced into the basement, and did “willingly” participate, she was definitely NOT capable of consent, and the boys were well aware of this. She had a mental age of 8 years old, at most, and yet she was painted as a “slut”. And when the town talked about the event, they didn’t talk about poor “Leslie”, but “those poor boys, this will ruin them!”

Salon article

There was a tv movie with the girl from Welcome to the Dollhouse playing the victim, and a “ripped from the headlines” episode of Law & Order.
Keep in mind, the Ms boards were a very small percentage of feminists. I don’t think there’s a hidden, controlling patriarchy conspiracy, but sexism still pervades our society. A lot of it stems from ignorance, rather than malice, but it’s out there.

63

Thank you, Guin, that’s all I was trying to say. It’s ignorance rather than malice. Girlfriend, I need you around more often to condense my prolix verbiage into a punchy, succint point.

64

Shouldn’t you buy me dinner first? :stuck_out_tongue:

65

It’s comments like these that make me believe there are feminist who devalue the labor of men. Since when did men not pull their own weight around the house? It was typically men that maintained the automobile and garbage disposals, fixed the plumbing, and did the yard work.

As I said earlier, it must be nice deciding when people are being true to themselves. You must have some sort of special insight to the souls of these individuals. If a man were to go do the dishes instead of watching or talking about sports would you say he wasn’t true to himself?

I’m not misrepresenting your arguement.

What you’re saying is that “all men” are flawed because they’re naturally chauvanistic. Apparantly I am a chauvanist by default though I’m comforted to know that I can redeem myself. I thank you sincerely for throwing me that bone, seriously.

Marc

66

I mostly agree with you, Johanna, but I see where MGibson is coming from. I’m a man, and yet I don’t feel that I was a chauvinist until I examined these attitudes unconsciously present in me. I think that these attitudes were never present in me. Of course, this may be because I’m only 23 years old and I’ve been raised in a rather progressive environment, but you yourself said that when you self-identified as man, you were disgusted by the chauvinist attitudes you saw in other men.

I’m sure that you recognize that there are men who are not “chauvinists until they see the error of their ways”, but maybe it would be a good idea to say it.

67

I typed a very long, and pointed response that I don’t think I can post here.

There is no way for me to express the opinion I have and not see tensions flaring, so I’m not going to.

The most I can say is that I really don’t think that someone who claims to be a feminist and be in favor of all women having the right to choose how to live their lives and be anything they want is going to slam those women who watch sports instead of watching football, my point against feminism has been made far better than I could make it myself.

Feminism to me has become the mantra of ‘you can be anyone you want as long as you do it our way’, and that is not a philosophy I will align myself with. Where I have I run into these feminists who made me wish to be associated with almost anyone but them? Well, everywhere that they tell me doing dishes instead of watching football is putting ‘my ass where my mouth is.’ Everywhere that a book someone read is considered more valid than my own personal experiences in life. Everywhere that someone tells me to think exactly like them, and then calls me sister. Everywhere that someone thinks chauvanism is inherent in every man until a woman enlightens him, and doesn’t back down from that until someone finally corners them into saying ‘OK maybe not all men.’

68

I think Johanna’s point was, shouldn’t EVERYONE have been in the kitchen, helping out?

Wouldn’t you be annoyed if you were the one doing all the work, and someone else sat around, watching TV, even if they helped make the mess?

69

Maybe in some people’s houses, there are people who chase others out of the kitchen.

You ever stop to think that your opinions of who ‘should’ be in the kitchen don’t fit into everyone’s house?

Of course, Johanna did specifically say that the MTF transsexuals, in order to show their sisterhood with the born-women should’ve been in the kitchen.

I guess that makes me a man, in her opinion.

70

Because traditionally, women did all the work cleaning up while the men sat around and watched TV?

71

So you haven’t considered that what you think ‘should’ happen maybe isn’t the way it ‘should’ work in everybody’s house?

Can I introduce you to my mother? She would haul your ass out of the kitchen kicking if you even attempted to help her cook, clean, or do dishes. Sometimes they’re doing it because they like to.

72

Most households have a division of labor. For example in my house I do the dishes most evenings but my wife is the one who cleans the bathrooms. Once in a while she’ll do the dishes or I’ll clean the bathroom but typically we stick with our routine. On a more practical note I’m sure you’re familiar with the law of diminished return. Two people might be doing a bang up job cleaning in the kitchen but a third or fourth person will just get in the way and make things less efficent.

I wouldn’t be annoyed if other people were just sitting around enjoying themselves while I did the dishes because I see it as my job to do them.

But perhaps we’re just picking at nits with all this talk of dishwashing and avoiding the main thesis of the OP.

Marc

73

Still like that at my folks house…and at my wifes folks house too come to think of it. In my folks case my mom works, but she works because she likes too (now a days…in the old days she worked or we didn’t eat, and she worked as a maid to rich white folks). In addition to working she cooked most of the meals (some meals were ‘mans’ work so my dad would banish her and my sisters from the kitchen and take over), cleaned the house and such while my dad would sit around on the veranda with his feed propped up (we didn’t have a TV until I was in High School). Even today my mom draws my fathers baths, makes him food if my dad even expresses general hunger (or bugs him to eat them makes it for him), cleans the house and still managed to work. My wifes folks (who aren’t hispanic) are actually worse. My father in law once told me (after he got by the shock that his little girl was marrying one of those damn Mexicans :wink: ) that women working was a ‘fad’. I love both of my in-laws, don’t get me wrong, but they are completely gender fixated in their roles, and while they have actually (and surprisingly) made some progress, I doubt they ever will completely break out of them.

I think its a generational thing with folks of my parents age (those still alive) have a certain mindset about male/female roles and responsibilities which are enforced on both sides strangely enough. Folks of my generation have our own baggage, even though I grew up during the 60’s and 70’s and my wife was initially involved in college with the Feminist movement (she later dropped out for various personal reasons I won’t get into here which did have a lot to do both with the people in her local group and with their attituded). From my perspective I believe women should have equal rights, but that means ‘equal’, reguardless of biology or biological factors. If a woman does equal work then she should get equal pay. The problem is the whole equal work thing sometimes. Women are as capable of men in most things (there are some physical activities I don’t think the majority of women are ready for…yet). They can generally do as good a job as their male counterparts depending on individual variance…if all things were equal. They aren’t. Women aren’t men, and they have other factors that impact them jobs wise.

For instance, when I worked for <a big Fortune 500 communications and IT company> my immediate supervisor was a woman and I was her Tech Manager and Principal Engineer, controlling a helpdesk of 50 people, including Tier one bubble boys/girls, Tier two technicians and Tier three engineers (and Tier four Network Gods/Devils…my own category :wink: ). At the first tier we had 25 bubble boys/girls…with perhaps a 60/40 ratio of men to women. At the second tier we had 15 techs…5 of whom were (initially) women. At the third tier there was one woman. At the managers/Gods/Devils level there was my boss (the PM, female), the Help Desk manager (Female), and 2 high level engineers (one female and perhaps the best engineer I ever worked with…not counting myself of course :stuck_out_tongue: ), and me (male obviously), the Principal Engineer for the contract.

Ok, all that boring stuff…what the hell does it mean? Only this. Within 2 years nearly all the first tier technicians were male. I’m going from memory here but I believe there were like 4-6 out of 25 women left in the bubble. Of the tier 2 techs there was 1 left. At the third tier there were 2 women (an actual increase), and of the managers/Gods/Devils it remained essentially the same. Why? Couple of reasons. I wasn’t the PM but I was her tech manager and she showed me the individual productivity stats. It was pretty clear that our female employees in general had more health related problems and took more days off than our male employees…they were less productive overall than their male counterparts. In addition, a number of our younger female employees had quit their jobs due to either getting married or getting pregnant (the older women in the higher level slots btw suffered neither the same ratio of missing work nor did any of them quit due to either marriage or pregnancy, despite one engineer getting married and my network Devil friend getting pregnant despite not having a father to pin it on).

Ok, that kind of explains what happened to even the females we originally hired…why didn’t we hire others to fill their place? Because my boss (a woman btw) believed in giving the best job to the best applicant reguardless of race, creed or sex (and she could get away with it because we already matched our unofficial ‘quota’ of minorities/women that allowed us to work on government contracts). Essentially more men than women applied for the jobs, and in general the men were more qualified for whatever the reasons.

That said, the long and the short of things is that we as a society are already moving towards greater and greater equality between the sexes (and between the ‘races’ too). Most of the folks who agitate about current inequalities in the US on a race/sex basis are either fanatic types, or are white males looking to fix the sins of their fathers or lessen their own ‘guilt’. The main stream, IMO, sees that there is still a ways to go, but recognizes how very far we’ve come in a short time. Think where we were 50 years ago, or a hundred years ago…and where we are today. Think about the fact that Rosa Parks died…and she was instrumental in the whole civil rights movement in this country. She is currently lieing in state at the Capital IIRC (think about THAT and what it means for a momemt). Think about how it was in her day…and how it is today, how very far we’ve come. And think where it will be when the current generation in school is in charge and running things (scary as that thought might be :stuck_out_tongue: ).

Well, I’ve managed to rant on here a lot longer than I intended…must be the scotch talking. I’ll just wind up by saying the same thing said earlier by others…Feminism got a bad rap because of a few fanatics who presented extreme views in a very vocal and public way. Like other groups who have a fringe fanatic element that tends to color public perception of the entire group. THink about the Democrats painted with the ‘left wing liberal’ brush, and even painted with the brush dipped in the EXTREME left wing paint. Look at the Republican’s painted in similar fashion with the ‘right wing fundamentalist religious’ brush. The Feminist as a whole got painted with the same brush from THEIR lunitic frings who also happened to be the folks who got the headlines. My wife has told me horror stories about her time in a group she joined in college and the reasons why she left and its no real shock to me why the Fems have been painted with a broad brush in the publics mind.

-XT

74

Sigh, I already said that the kitchen division of labor wasn’t a good example, there were better examples I was trying to think of but couldn’t recall at the time of posting. It seems this medication fucks with my memory recall; it comes with a whole garage sale of side effects. I was looking for examples of transwomen continuing to abuse male privilege. Maybe you don’t care about this, but it matters to me because it reflects on my integrity by association. As soon as I’d posted it, I knew the example sucked, so Marc, I’m glad you agree with me that picking this nit is beside the point. Just now I was reading a gender issues thread on another message board, and one of my really angry Tgirl friends had something to say about another who she felt was trying to use male privilege inconsistently with claimed female identity:

I could cite another example from Saudi Arabia where a transwoman got her gender legally changed to female, but then when her father died, as a woman she got half as much as inheritance as she would have had she remained a man, under their strict application of Islamic law. So she sued to claim she was born a man so she should get the full amount. What chutzpah! This is a plain lack of personal integrity. Trying to have one’s gendercake and eat it too. It’s unworthy of a person of good character. As you can see, the issues are more weighty than who does the dishes.

Marc, you distorted my argument by insinuating that I called all nonfeminist men “assholes.” I never did anything of the sort. I said that because of being brought up in a male chauvinist dominated system, and enjoying the privileges it confers on men, they have unconscious male chauvinism in them as long as it remains unexamined. By giving a couple examples of outright male chauvinism, I specifically stated I did not mean to blame all military men for it, nor, by extension, all men in general. Although it’s a problem for gender equality, I said from the start we should not hate people, that I would like to see men freed from this oppressive system too. I don’t think it really benefits most men that much. You ignored all that I’d said that demonstrates I am not a man-hater. This is how badly you misrepresented my argument. I think that’s unworthy of a decent debate.

catsix, I never said you have to think exactly as I think. Please be reasonable.

Both of you, please chill with the wild accusations. I treat you with respect, it would be nice if you treated me with respect. We could work through our differences and maybe all arrive at a better understanding of this issue together, and maybe even find out we’re not that far apart. It happens sometimes. Why does this have to be so painful? I thought this was Great Debates, not the Pit.

severus, it’s young people like you who give me hope for the future of a better humanity. I’m exactly twice your age. It doesn’t matter if I’m of an older generation, I like to keep learning from the young. Staves off senility from my antique brain. If as you describe it’s possible for a young man to grow up free from chauvinist attitudes in the present day, that’s good news indeed. I am doing my best to raise my son and grandson that way, with all the love in my heart.

75

And you really can’t see what a sexist statement that is? There’s something wrong with every man and how he treats women unless you help him fix it? Men don’t come flawed any more than women do, and it’s not up to you or any other feminist to go about showing them their ‘unconscious male chauvanism’ and fixing it.

This is where the idea that feminists are really sexists begins. It begins with someone saying that there’s something that needs to be ‘fixed’ about a man purely because he as a penis, and that he’s a chauvanist until it is fixed by some feminist.

As long as that means they change to suit you, right? There are plenty of us, men and women, who don’t want you ‘freeing’ us to think just like you.

I think it’s perfectly reasonable to believe I don’t need to be told what it is to be a woman.

Now pointing out historical fact is wild accusations?

But you haven’t treated all those poor, subconsciously chauvanist until you and your feminist sisters come in and fix them, men with respect. I have stated why feminism to me is nothing more than sexism. It is not my fault that you have made some sexist statements in this thread.

Your opinion is much, much further from mine than you want to admit. As long as you believe in ‘unconscious male chauvanism’ present in all men unless it is ‘examined’, we will never have a better understanding of this issue together. All you’ll find is that I keep great distance between myself and statements like those.

76

To respond to the OP, all along feminism has been about a LOT of important things that have diddly to do with hating men, like equal pay for equal work, easing the day care burden for working mothers, developing respect for SAHM (OK, it took awhile and some debate, but feminists back in the late 80s pretty much decided that SAHM contribute greatly to social welfare by caring for children and such, and hence were worthy of a lot more respect from society at large), fighting against rape and so forth (I don’t equate opposing rape with hating men, though for feminists of the “all men are rapists” stripe probably fill the bill. But most feminists understand that men who are rapists are different from those who are not) and many feminists also dropped the anti-porn thing and became sex-positive, fighting for things like unionization and health care for sex workers, and the development of porn for women as well as men.

Feminists have been doing this kind of stuff all along, but the conservatives have someone managed to create the sick meme that feminism is about hating men. It’s not, but I am not sure what feminists can do to convince a largely uninformed society that it’s not.

77

I do recall saying that the remaining mess is a lot more complicated than the obvious stuff, most of which has been effectively dealt with.

Let’s say catsix wants to get married. To a male person, no less. There are feminists who have said that in a world where heterosexuality is compulsory, and the fringe benefits attend to heterosexuality while the hazards attach to the alternatives, women cannot said to have “chosen” men as their sex partners in the same sense as where no such coercion was applied. Would it piss off catsix that such feminists cast doubts on whether or not she is really into guys? Then there are feminists who have said that the institution of marriage is historically a patriarchal structure, both in effect and in purpose, and that even largely cleansed of statutory inequities, its central axioms — exclusivity, monogamy, permanence, promises that preclude subsequent free choice — are still patriarchal; and that marriage is sold to females with fervent marketing passion in such a way that most women marry without seriously considering any alternative options for how to structure ongoing love and family relationship(s). Would it piss off catsix to have these feminists declaring that she doesn’t know what she’s doing when she enters into a marriage, and that it’s intrinsically oppressive and bad for her? And heck, we haven’t even gotten to whether or not she changes her name to his and what name the children will have!

And yet, barring occasional use of sweeping generalizations phrased as absolutes, those feminists haven’t said that catsix is brainwashed, oppressed, or pressured into doing any of these things. What they’ve said is that the pressures do exist, the formidable concept-marketing pressures do exist, the weight of tradition does exist, and that females in general are subjected to these things and that, as a consequence, some women are doing these things for reasons other than having chosen them after a careful consideration of the options that was made with an awareness of sexual politics and history. And that that, insofar as it makes individual women miserable, is a bad thing.

Problem is, it’s hard to make those distinctions on a bumper sticker, jacket pin, or a 10 second sound bit for NBC when they come to cover your protest march.

78

catsix, she wasn’t saying all men are chauvanists-nobody is. What we’re saying is, society in general has an under current of chauvanism, and that a lot of people act this way without realizing it.

Good for your mom. However, the way I was brought up, you always at least OFFER to help. It’s just good manners.

We’re talking about men who sit around and let the women do the cleaning, without offering to help, because cleaning is “women’s work”, and therefore, they, as men, should not have to. Do you not agree that that’s wrong? That one should not assume that “Oh, of COURSE the womenfolk’ll clean it up, because that’s what women do.”

Feminism is not, in and of itself, sexism. That some who call themselves feminists are sexist does not make the entire group sexist. Think of the feminists in the past who paved the way for women today. You like being able to vote, have control of your own reproductive health, control your own finances, right? Well, those are all due to feminism.

79

The question of holding onto male privilege while claiming otherwise is a serious issue much debated these days in circles where trannies interact with and hold dialogues with feminists. If any Dopers are unaware of this, I don’t blame you, it’s a fairly esoteric subject to the public at large. But this is a real concern that feminists put forward, and I think they’re right to ask trannies to behave consistently with their claims. The Qur’an says, “Sometimes you have to bear witness against yourselves.” (i.e. in a moral sense, not in a courtroom.) It means that when you’re in the wrong, the moral and honest thing to do is own up to it. It’s in my own interest to criticize it. It tends to delegitimize our entire existence in the eyes of many who would otherwise support us. I care about it because demanding to have your cake and eat it too is one of the less endearing characteristics of male chauvinism, and especially when that’s brought into women’s space, it really is offensive. If someone wants to claim to be a woman, let her learn from other women’s examples how to relate, instead of bringing over old assumptions about gender roles.

80

I don’t think I really distorted it but I will cop to using inflammatory language. I consider myself a nonfeminist because “feminism” has to much baggage attached to it. While I firmly believe in equal rights for all human beings I did no arrive at that conclusion via feminist ideals or examination of sexism. You might not be saying that all men are fundamentally flawed but that’s the message I get when you say we’re all sexist until we examine the issues in whatever way you wish to frame them.

Well if it’s any comfort, I for one never thought you hated men in general.

I haven’t called you any names and I even recognized that we each bring our own personal baggage to the discussion. I don’t see how I could be more respectful.

Marc