How did so many atheists end up here?

Great Debates
401

Polycarp’s position is fairly tight.

Well, obviously Der is an example, as you have conceded.

But are you claiming that there’s been no shift in the climate here since you’ve joined the board? With the rise of new atheism, I perceive the climate here as being significantly less cordial towards believers. I daresay that Der would have received a lot of reflexive distancing by seculars 8-10 years ago. Not so now.

Perhaps more interestingly, Voyager’s stance has shifted subtly over time, away from Gould’s diplomatic characterization of religion and science as “non-overlapping magisteria.” To be fair, much of that evolution occurred before he joined the board, I suspect – I’m just saying that there have been some societal shifts over the past 2 decades.

I quoted Der in full here. Note the way he segues from “Anything less than a chorus of praise for religion is intolerable,” (false) to “…the fact that the mods allow people to express disdain of religion at all is what offends them.”

Yes, disdain and antipathy tends to drive people away. And most people don’t run to the mods every time they lose an argument. They just figure they have better things to do than deal with unpleasantness.

The objective evidence for theism is weak, which puts believers is a difficult spot on this board. That leaves 2 stances, I guess. You can justify theism by questioning Occam’s razor -philosophically sound, but socially problematic as it part of the foundations of scientific inquiry. Or you can emphasize that your belief is a matter of subjective perception. Either way, I’d argue that while such frameworks are appropriate in a metaphysical context, they are inappropriate in common world that most of us live in. So pushing this line of argument puts believers at a disadvantage, however sophisticated it is.

Good example. Most theological threads tend to have an atheist chiming in on post #4 or so saying “Because God doesn’t exist anyway. Duh.” Hilariously, that sort of behavior has been driven out of Cafe Society – they call it threadshitting there. You’re not suppose to suggest that Star Wars (1970s, 1980s) are anything other than brilliant in a certain threads, but irrelevant comments are considered acceptable in GD theological discussions.

ETA: This is my 5001st post. Woo hoo! Must… get… a life.

402

I’ve begun to think of lightning bolts as God’s 2nd Amendment remedy for sinners. :stuck_out_tongue:

403

Really. I see a lot of “reflexive distancing” myself.

No, true. The American public as a whole hates and fears atheists for merely existing, much less admitting their disbelief. We’re regarded as amoral or outright evil. Or simply considered liars because “everyone knows” there’s a God, so we are obviously just pretending to be atheists.

“Weak”? Try nonexistent at best; negative, when you get right down to it.

404

Its probably worth remembering that 25% still were religious rather than 1% or whatever. And that it was hardly a rigorous survey in the first place.

Ie this whole issue is a matter of proportion rather than a relentless pogrom by atheists to remove all religion from the board or the like. But it will be interesting to see if it changes further over time.

Otara

405

You might enjoy seeing if there is a local chapter of the American Humanist Association near you. I have heard many atheists comment on how unusual and pleasant it was to be somewhere that it was taken as a given that there are no gods or other supernatural phenomena.

406

To this atheist, the type of activity you describe is far less offensive than the frequency with with we daily encounter comments in nearly all aspects of daily life assuming the existence of a god. “There but for the grace of god…” “I’ll pray for you…” “God bless you…” etc., etc…

You observe/complain that it is inappropriate for someone to bring atheism into an on-line discussion of a religious question? Well, its a hell of a lot more appropriate there than public prayer before a governmental meeting, or a comment by an acquaintance - or even a stranger - on the street.

407

Sorry I haven’t gotten back, but today is a VERY long day for me and I had to get some rest beforehand (vs. hanging out here all last night and this morning typing crap up). Back @ 8 pm tonite.

408

As an atheist I just couldn’t disagree more. The expressions you’re using as examples are

  1. Almost invariably (yes, there are exceptions) just people being nice, and
  2. Usually semantic reflex - heck, I’ve used the phrase “There but for the grace of God” and such, even though I know there’s no such thing as God.

There’s no equivalent at all between someone saying “God bless you” when you sneeze, and someone threadshitting. One is just common manners, the other is being an asshole.

409

You know what I do when I lose an argument? I take a look at my position and decide if it is a valid position to have. If not then I change my position! I don’t whine about it because someone destroyed my sacred cow.

410

Nobody wants to remove religion from this board. To the religious ,religion is a huge part of their lives. To an atheist, we don’t even think about it. It is a weak back burner item in our daily lives. When someone starts another religious post we come in.
I love the concept of “new atheism”. It does not exist. A couple people have managed to get atheistic themed books published the last decade. That was a big deal. but I doubt anybody has changed their lives over it. The religious nuts over emphasize the importance. We just keep on trucking along. Nothing has changed.

411

It is inevitable that any time I state that you can be Buddhist without mystical beliefs, someone suggests that I am not an actual Buddhist. I am a Zen Buddhist. I believe what most Zen Buddhists believe and practice what most Zen Buddhists practice. Samsara and Nirvana are states of mind; for me and my life it is all about the present moment. Yes, I believe we are all interconnected and that the nature of all things is impermanence. Yes I believe actions have consequences. No I do not believe any higher power or consciousness is keeping track of my actions, no I do not believe in an afterlife in the sense of a permanent soul.

I believe as a human being I am a temporary manifestation of the universe in the way that a wave is a temporary manifestation of the ocean. You’re one wave, I’m another wave, this couch is a fish and the Eiffel Tower is a grain of sand along the sea floor, but we’re all part of the ocean. Someday the fish will die and decay and it will become a part of the sea floor but it will never for one second cease being part of the ocean.

None of this is particularly unusual for a Zen Buddhist, nor is it all that mystical.
I suppose since I have no allegiance to any god and and mostly practice in the privacy of my own home, it doesn’t really matter either way whether I practice a philosophy or a religion. Until the Council of Official Buddhists comes and rips the scrolls off my wall I’m probably not going to lose any sleep over it.

snort

412

I decided to combat anti religious witnessing with a thing I like to call the truth. {among other techniques} If someone asks for evidence for things there are no evidence for I acknowledge the lack of evidence.

Certain anti religion positions are debatable with facts to consider. The “religion is obviously evil and has done nothing good for mankind. We’d be better off without it” crowd get the same disdain from me as religion gets from them because I think it’s a ridiculous generality rather than a fact based argument, but at least their are facts to consider.

I think the hard part here is not always what is said, the sarcasm and mocking often present, but the volume. It’s often a believer, maybe two, against 5 or 6 others. I try to ignore the snide comments and focus in substance.

413

It’s not ineffable. I stood on a crate and effed the hell out of it. For my efforts I got three wishes. My first wish was for that video to not make it to youtube.

414

Salute. :smiley:

415

I should have provided more detail - and of couse, perhaps we just disagree.

Sure, I’m not offended by “GBY” IRT a sneeze. Hell, I use words like hell, goddammit, and jesus fucking christ. I was simply presenting a couple of the shortest references that quickly came to mind, assuming people would understand and extrapolate.

So let’s say I grant you all of the “God Bless yous” and “There but for the grace of Gods” as inoffensive. On top of all of that background noise, pile on when something unpleasant happens - either to an acquaintance or just in the news - and someone introduces into the discussion something along the lines of “the Lord works in mysterious ways.” Or how about when someone dies, and you hear “He is in a better place.” Not in my opinion. In a casual conversation I NEVER say anything along the lines of “He is just wormfood rotting in the ground now” or “That bastard God that he prayed to sure disn’t keep him from a long, painful death.”

You may not mind what you consider to simply be a semantic reflex. But in many cases I view it as a person introducing into the discussion the belief that events are to be viewed as tho they are part of some non-existent being/power’s plan, and that that should provide some comfort or something. It doesn’t give me comfort, it annoys me.

The majority of people I know and am related to are christian. I have NEVER given any believer a gift insulting their beliefs, yet several people who are well aware of my disbelief have repeatedly given me religious items.

Even if it is simply a semantic convention, why choose a religious one when there are so many secular alternatives? When I give money to a beggar, if he says “God bless” instead of “thank you” (or nothing), that is a guarantee that I will not give him anything ever again. If he wants to believe in a fiction, let him rely on that fiction to improve his suituation rather than my money. Why must the president feel obligated to end his remarks with “God bless America.” And no one yet has metioned (in this thread) “In God we trust”, or the recurring battles to post 10 commandments, creches, or whathaveyou on public property.

If you do not perceive sincere references to religion are not rampant in our society, then you either travel in far different circles than I, or have vastly more effective blinders.

Do you think people would take it poorly if I adopted the semantic reflex of “God is a myth”?

416

I’d be okay with it.

417

And yet again I ask that one must consider the venue. What kinds of people are attracted to this type of message board? Personally, I was drawn in by Cecil’s smart ass approach to fighting ignorance and bullshit. People here sometimes respond with a quip or dig, especially when it comes to unsubstantiated claims, and to demand otherwise for a special category such as religion is to demand too much, imho. It may seem that atheists outnumber religionists at times, but it is usually when the topic is one that is a burr under the saddle of a lot of them.
There are many, many boards out there where atheists are rare, nonexistent or are afraid to speak out, and there are boards out there where you have to officially toe the line or you will get kicked out. This board is nowhere near that intolerant when it comes to the religious-they get the same right to speak as anyone else…and anyone else has the right to challenge them. Any so-called “balance” in a thread involving religion would have to an artificially created “balance”. Is that what is being asked for when people talk about being outnumbered on certain subjects?

418

[Meticulously adjusts tie] JIHAD!!!111one

419

Nope.

Calling a spade a spade is neither hostile nor offensive.

Sure. If you can get her to laugh you’ll have a hell of a scoop though.

420

None of these are necessary Buddhist beliefs (and you’re actually describing Hindusim mor than Buddhism). Buddhism is not a religion of doctrine or belief. Some forms of Buddhism are arguably not religious at all.

Zen practice, for instance, does not concern itself with any supernatural aspects and is focused only on cultivating self-awareness ('mindful thinking"). It uses meditation, but has a greater goal of finding one way into that state of mind all the time. It’s just mental exercise without any necessary supernatural beliefs whatsoever. You can believe that stuff if you want to. You can even be a Christian and practice Zen, just like you can be a Christian and practice yoga. supernatural beliefs are immaterial to and separate from the core of Buddhist practice. There is nothing you are required to believe. A lot of Buddhist teaching (especially Zen) will even tell you that such concerns are a distraction better left ignored.