I was reading some of the teeth gnashing and wailing by bar owners and smokers over the new Italian anti-smoking laws set to take effect tomorrow that will prohibit indoor smoking in non-ventilated areas, and wondered how the Irish made out with their similar ban.
How did it go?
It seems to be going fine. There are always people that will complain but for the most part its going well. Most of the pubs in rural areas will actuallty allow you smoke, but there the types of places that are down winding country roads. Most of the pubs around here, the nicer ones anyway, have places set up out the back that are covered over and heated so people can still smoke while in the pub. The Clubs don’t really have this though so if people want to smoke, they have to stand out in the street. People appear to be used to it now though and it doesnt appear to bother them.
As for in the work place, I can’t really comment there as I’ve been on leave for the last four months. When I was working the smokers would just go outside and accept the fact that they couldnt smoke indoors.
I don’t know what its doing, if anything, to the economy. I havent heard of any pubs/restaurants that have lost trade due to the smoking ban. Although there was one pub in Galway that was closed down, but I think that was because the Owner refused to enforce the law.
It probably varies around the country, so I’m sure some of the other Irish on the boards will have different opinions on the subject.
I was in Ireland for a week around Thanksgiving and it was heaven to be in the pubs w/o smoke. I never saw a single person smoking inside, but there were little knots of them outside the door. As a non-smoking tourist, it was great.
Both of the Texas cities I’ve lived in have had laws whereby it is illegal to smoke indoors in a restaurant, bar or other establishment unless in a separate room, accessible only by those over the age of 18, possessing its own separate ventilation system. So far the bars and restaurants there have not closed. Seriously, if you can’t smoke in ANY of the indoors places, how will that adversely affect them? It’s not like they’re going to lose clientele to the places where they CAN smoke, since there aren’t any…
I just quit smoking a few months ago which I don’t think I would have done if it hadn’t become so anti-social but I really resented the smoking ban as did a lot of the smokers I know.
If you’re used to smoking when you’re drinking, it can really put a dampner on a night especially if you go out with non-smokers who are too cruel to come out in the freezing raining cold with you to smoke. I’d still say that, although something had to be done about the level of passive smoking going on in pubs, there surely could have been a less aggressive way to resolve this like smoking rooms or better ventilation.
It’s working out fine… of course there’ll always be people who said they’ll lose income if the smoking ban came in - to be honest, I think Irish pubowners are the biggest rip-off merchants ever, I don’t really give a damn if their huge profits are slightly down (and I do wonder if they are really because the local I go to doesn’t seem to have been affected one bit).
In fact, there was a TV poll taken just around New Year and it said that the biggest highlight of 2004 was the introduction of the smoking ban.
We’ve accepted it because we have to. However, I (and many of my smoking friends) tend to avoid pubs that don’t have adequately heated and protected smoking areas, and since they’re quite rare, in general this means we stay at home and smoke.
I do smoke an awful lot less if I am out drinking, though, which is a good thing. But it’s still a pain in the arse.
I’ve just got back from staying down the country, and in the local pub there the staff turned a blind eye to people smoking in the gents. On my first visit to the toilets, an elderly, distinguished-looking man at the urinal turned his head to me and said “do you mind if I have a pull?”
Given what was in his hand at the time, I was a little taken aback, but it turned out he only meant “on a cigarette”. 
Just thought of something else: a personal effect it’s had on me is that, the last time I was in the UK, I felt really bad for all the people working in the pubs who were breathing in vast amounts of second-hand smoke.
Like jjimm said the effect on me has been that I give a lot less money to pubs that I used to. I would have probably averaged 2-4 nights a week in a pub not it’s more like 2-4 night every 3 weeks. There’s a grand pub across the road from work that has a nice smoking area(tables, seats and heaters) but ever with the heat it’s still sometimes to fucking cold to stay out there.
There’s no logical argument about the smoking in the workplace ban AFAIC but it’s a pain for this smoker as I used to love going to the pub. Now I buy beer and go home with it or go round to a friends.
Here in Minnesota, we passed the Mn Clean Indoor Air Act in 1975, 29 years ago.
There was the same kind of anguished complaints from businesses that they would be driven out of business by this. But oddly enough, 29 years later, we still have businesses, resteraunts, bars, etc. opearing just fine.
Color me confused, tbonham, but does this act apply to restaurants? I mean, it’s not like our restaurants and bars have been smoke-free for 29 years. They haven’t. Go into any restaurant here and you’ll still be asked “Smoking or non?”
If that act did apply to restaurants and bars, why all the fuss about the smoking bans recently enacted by Bloomington, St. Paul, Duluth, Rochester, and Fargo? I think it’s these that ban smoking in restaurants and bars, not the act of '75 (which, IIRC, applies only to workplaces). We’re only now trying to ban smoking in restaurants and bars.
Just to clarify. The ban in Ireland is a “Workplace ban”
Maternity homes? That seems like an odd exception.
It should be pointed out that the Irish ban applies only to the Republic of Ireland. In Northern Ireland it’s still legal to smoke in pubs, and in the southern border regions some pubs have been adversely affected. But everyone knows it’s only a matter of time before the north adopts the same law, so it will even out eventually.
That act was the one that pi]caused* the “Smoking or non?” questions – it required restaurants to either go non-smoking, or provide a non-smoking section, with isolation and ventilation requirements.
I think most restaurants have gone to completely non-smoking, due to the expense of maintaining the 2 sections, and the operational difficulty (problems with too much/too little room in one or the other section, and problems assigning workers between sections). And, of course, the increasing acceptance, even expectation, by the public of non-smoking in restaurants. Of the major restaurant chains in this area, Perkins is the only one I remember that isn’t already completely non-smoking.
There was an exception for bars; they were allowed to stay entirely a smoking area. That is what is being changed by the new laws in most of the major cities in Minnesota. These will take effect this spring, unless the tobacco industry finds some way to stop them. The laws vary a bit by city, but I believe most of them would allow a bar to have smoking and non-smoking sections. But strict requirements for ventilation & health coverage for workers would seem to make this infeasable for all but the most profitable bars. The indication is that most bars will just go completely non-smoking. No doubt some neighborhood bars won’t make much effort to enforce this; that will last as long as their customers will accept it.
For the most part , the prohibition fads concerning smoking in bars, have had mixed sucess in terms of Bar operations and the data is still coming in. In terms of lost revenue , Molsons brewerys have advised local establisments that customer drop off would bottom out at 15 percent pre ban ,and stabilize at somewhere around 85 percent of the pre ban clientele several years later.
Obviously , this will vary from location to location and that no one given population is going to be repersentative of the world at large , especially since I am living in Canda , which really does not have that much of a pub lifestyle as the Irish experience does.
The whole argument that bars would not lose clientele if all bars went non smoking across the province is a myth. The fact is that bars are not that stable of a business to start with , add in the amount of insurance that they pay , plus the various add on taxes that are levied , and the amounts that they are required to pay ,as to prove that they are good corparate citizens , means that any drop off in revenue is going to adversely affect them.
Bar owners go where the money is , so that if the majority of the populations were non smokers , bars would have been non smoking long ago. There is no intrinsic relationship between bar owners and smokers , just that smokers by and large tend to go out , be social and spend money. Thats something that so far , the non smokers have failed to step up to the plate with, if they are going out ,they are not spending the same amount of money that smokers once did.
But ya know what , thats okay with the Taliban. What they want is a disconnect between a generation of people who think , not unreasonably , that there is nothing wrong with smoking in a bar , or a restaurant, and the next generation of kids that will never think that smoking anywheres indoors was normal. If that means that a lot of bars go under , so be it.
As for the smokers , the market will adapt. Some people will go out , some will stay home , others will simply go underground. Not every smoking ban is set in stone,and the non smoking population will find to its dismay ,that politicians are not their friends. While New York probably has one of the most odious of the bans, its lifespan is going to be heavily influenced by Bloombergs next election campaign, but that is going to have to be left to New Yorkers ,themselves.
Declan
It’s something that has to be endured. I’m not happy at all myself, though was forced to change my mind somewhat listening to the tales of joy of my very outgoing but astmathic friend who can now go out again without constant worry. If I’m doing people a favour, the suffering is easier to put up with.
Huddling outside for a ciggie break is also a good place to meet cool people.
It’s fairly strictly enforced. Yes, more so in the towns but many country pubs enforce it too. The ones that don’t will usually wait till there are no outsiders to shop them to the gardai (police) in my experience.
I ran into some Italians who were convinced that the rule wouldn’t be enforced as Italy just wasn’t “a rule kind of country”. Well, that’s what we all said about Ireland before the ban, so if any Italians reading this I wouldn’t count on it unless you have more pluck then people here.
All in all I’m in two minds about this. I honestly hadn’t realises how badly many people were actually bothered the smoke and when I see some people being extremely happy (as long as they don’t smirk about it) it makes me feel good about not ruining their night.
On the other hand I hate being told what by the State. That just get my goat. I wish we could have sorted it out civilly and perhaps had smoking rooms in pubs or something other than a blanket ban. I really would have been quite willing to compromise as I do care about non-smokers happiness.
It’s already on its way in Scotland. I think 2006 is the target.
There’s the same bleating and arguments from pub owners and smokers, but the Scottish Executive, for once, is actually taking a principled stand. It’s a question of public health.
Interestingly both sides of the argument use Ireland’s experience as rock solid evidence of their argument.
It can’t happen soon enough as far as I’m concerned. The whole ‘smokers are more fun, more social and non-smokers don’t go to pubs’ argument is not credible and a very broad brush. All smokers have in common is an addiction to nicotine. Non smokers avoid pubs because they stink and make you stink. If you have an environment that is hostile to non-smokers it can hardly be a surprise that they don’t choose to spend time there.
It would be interesting to see how it goes in Italy. The southern Europeans aren’t use to restrictions on smoking and don’t think twice to light up in most places.
Nah , they are Zealots that currently hold power , they don’t have to compromise as far as they are concerned ,and a vote might be defeated.
Declan
Since I only ever smoked cigarettes in pubs, it cut down on my smoking, and now that the pubs have smartened themselves up (it’s amazing what smoke can cover up in terms of smells) it’s not too bad to go out.
However, I wouldn’t go out as much either, it’s just not worth spending large amounts of the evening in the cold in order to continue the conversation you were having with your smoker friend. It also means that when I do go out it’s often to pubs I wouldn’t normally have gone to, but go to now because of their nice smoking areas (eg the Market Bar off Georges’ St).
I did really notice the difference when I was back up in the North at Xmas. People smoking in cafes, shopping centres, bus stations etc…it smelt terrible and really annoyed me. When you’ve spent several months in a smoke-free world, going back to a smoky one is horrible.