How do devout Christians justify military service?

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=Sinaijon]
From the article:

A soldier can’t be expected to have all evidence in hand to make the necessary judgment. He needs to trust those that do. If you don’t trust that the government will make the right choice, then you shouldn’t enlist.
[/QUOTE]
ISTM that the Catechism places the burden in the wrong place. Christians certainly can’t count on secular governments to determine whether wars are ‘just’ by Christian standards; we have to make our own judgments on that score.

And maybe a soldier, or a would-be soldier, “can’t be expected to have all evidence in hand to make the necessary judgment” but that’s life: we’re always having to make choices, including moral judgments, on the basis of incomplete evidence.

The soldier doesn’t cease being a Christian when he becomes a soldier. Accordingly, he must continue to be a moral actor, and must refuse to fight in wars that Jesus wouldn’t want him to fight in, whether his standard is the ‘just war’ standard or some other Biblically-based standard.

At any rate, because Jesus’ worldview and the world’s worldview are fundamentally different, it goes without saying, IMHO, that one can’t trust the government to make the right choice, and that Christians should stay out of the military unless they believe that God is specifically calling them to be there.

42

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
An awful lot of “Christian doctrine” DOES describe a god who’s a psychopath…a creature that demands worship, or tyranny, or genocide, or the torture of unbelievers, or the infinite agony of those who disagree with them IS a monster. And that’s what millions of Christians define God as being like.
[/QUOTE]
Amen to that. Plenty of Christians believe that if know about Christ and [evangelical Protestant version] haven’t accepted him as your personal Savior, or [Roman Catholic version] have refused to become a Christian or partake of the Sacraments, then you’re going to spend eternity in Hell.

I also have known plenty of people of both persuasions who are convinced that most people will go to Hell.

Call such a God what you will, but ‘psychopath’ seems to suit quite well.

43

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]

Plenty of Christians define ( and have defined ) their God as a monster. They don’t use the word monster or psychopath, but a creature that demands worship, or tyranny, or genocide, or the torture of unbelievers, or the infinite agony of those who disagree with them IS a monster. And that’s what millions of Christians define God as being like.
[/QUOTE]

Do you mind if I keep and use this quote? I’m putting together a website of logical fallacies, and was having hard time finding a good example of begging the question. This one is perfect! It’s textbook!

Thanks in advance!

44

[QUOTE=Sinaijon]
Do you mind if I keep and use this quote? I’m putting together a website of logical fallacies, and was having hard time finding a good example of begging the question. This one is perfect! It’s textbook!

Thanks in advance!
[/QUOTE]

You might want to put this there instead:

and put your previous post under Irony. :smiley:

45

[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
:rolleyes:
Consistent with christianity, maybe. Consistent with the teachings of Jesus, absolutely not. There’s a big difference.

Don’t forget, Jesus lived under a tyrannical regime, arguably much worse than Iraq.
[/QUOTE]
You forget the actions of Jesus when he attacked the moneychangers. He did not accept the status quo. He drove them out with whips. It is not inconsistent to stand up for what you believe to be right.

We have infused the ideas expressed by Jesus in everyday lessons. “Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never harm me” is a classic example of passively deflecting anger using words. It took centuries to relearn the simple lessons taught by Jesus and the process was certainly not pretty.

Sampiro and the weekly challengers of Christianity should be aware that the Bible is not a contiguous writing dictated by Jesus. It is a compilation of various books. Christ made no attempt to record his words in any form. His messages were simple and do not require philosophical debate.

46

[QUOTE=Lobohan]
You might want to put this there instead:and put your previous post under Irony. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

Ah! Skewered enfilade! I admit my error. Der Tris is right. Christians define god as a monster, because their definition of God is monsterly.

So getting back to the thread, it seems rather obvious, then, why Christians justify military service. Its a monsterly thing to do. What’s the problem? :rolleyes:

47

When Jesus praised the Roman soldier’s faith (Luke 7:1-10), he didn’t then turn around and tell him he had to leave the Roman army. When Peter baptised Cornelius (Acts 10), a Roman soldier, he didn’t tell him to leave the military. When soldiers asked John the Baptist what they should do (Luke 3:14), he told them “Don’t extort money or make false accusations. And be content with your pay.” He didn’t tell them they had to leave the military. So if Jesus, Peter, and John the Baptist were okay with military service, why shouldn’t I be?

48

[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink]
Why is this necessarily bullshit?

I don’t want to hijack this thread into a discussion of the Iraq war, but in general, it seems to me that a BS-free argument could be made that military action to overthrow a tyrannical regime and bring freedom and democracy to an oppressed country could be consistent with Christianity.
[/QUOTE]

Jesus lived in a country that was occupied by a brutal overlord. The Romans had crucified thousands of Jews by this time; the Jewish kings had crucified thousands of opposing Jews before the Romans ever took over the land, and Rome’s client king Herod murdered thousands of political opponents, one of his wives, her entire family (the last of the Maccabees) and several of his own sons and other relatives as well as (if the gospel account is to believed) all the children of Bethlehem [a story that is at once almost impossible to believe and has no historical verification but at the same time is not at all out of character for what is known of Herod]). Herod’s son Archelaus was banished by Rome for tyranny, and Antipas killed John the Baptist and would himself be banished for incompetence and tyranny (mainly due to a war with Nabatea, a Jordanian kingdom capitoled at what’s now Petra over his doubly incestuous and adulterous liaison with his niece/sister-in-law/cousin Herodias for whom he’d divorced the Nabatean king’s daughter but kept her dowry). A generation after Jesus the Romans would raze most of the temple and destroy most of Jerusalem and reconsecrate it to pagan gods. He most certainly understood the concept of a totalitarian regime, yet not only did he not preach democracy but he taught slaves to stay in their places, he healed the servant of a Roman centurion, and he preached to keep paying taxes to Caesar and not to attack. (When bar Kokhba led a full-scale revolt against Rome a century after Christ and for the holiest of reasons (Hadrian’s ban on circumcision and other interferences with Jewish dogma as well as the reconsecration of the temple to pagan gods) there was debate among Christians in the region as to whether Jesus would want them to fight.)

The “bringing democracy is Christian” argument doesn’t hold water. Christ certainly had the opportunity and the incentive (and even the following) to preach about opposing and resisting tyrants. The whole purpose of his execution was to crush a possible rebellion towards Rome (Romans couldn’t care less who claimed to be the Hebrew messiah or what did or didn’t constitute sacrelige to the Jews, but they cared very much that a man with a following was being called “King of the Jews”).
eta: or, now that I’ve finished reading the thread, what others have said far more concisely. :slight_smile:

49

[QUOTE=Magiver]
Sampiro and the weekly challengers of Christianity should be aware that the Bible is not a contiguous writing dictated by Jesus. It is a compilation of various books.
[/QUOTE]

I think most of us are quite aware of that. In addition to having studied religion and the history of the 1st century in some depth (not as much as I’d like admittedly) I used to very religious myself and went to a super-religious school (that actually did a good job at religious instruction, I must allow).
Bit of an aside, but I totally understand Tevye’s lyrics that “If I were a rich man”…" I’d discuss the holy books with the learned men seven hours every day/and that would be the sweetest thing of all". I’d LOVE to have the liberty to devote my life to this study, to learn classical Hebrew and Greek and… oy, time to go feed the chickens (“yadduh deedle daidle digguh digguh deedle daidle dum…”).

So then it’s quite alright to interpret it any way one pleases?

50

[QUOTE=Sampiro]
So then it’s quite alright to interpret it any way one pleases?
[/QUOTE]

No, no…he’s obviously saying that it’s impossible to misinterpret them and that’s why there’s only one variety of Christianity today.

51

[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
Churches that I have attended have placed the teachings of Jesus at a very low priority, far below the judgmental teachings of Paul and the particular parts of the OT that allow them to feel superior to others. The teachings of Jesus seem to be an inconvenience to be explained away, as has been demonstrated by other responses in this thread. Christians seem to me to be very quick to get Jesus crucified so he can’t open his mouth, and then continue with their self-aggrandizement and judging of others.
[/QUOTE]

The idea of a judgemental Paul vs. a lovey-dovey Jesus is a really simplistic view of the NT. You think Jesus wasn’t judgemental? The same Jesus who said “Anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God,” to the guy who wanted to say goodbye to his family before following him (Luke 9:61-62)?

The one who said

[QUOTE=Matthew 7:6]
“Don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you."
[/QUOTE]

The one who said

[QUOTE=Matthew 10:37-38]
If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine.
[/QUOTE]

Paul’s judgemental? The same Paul who argued that Gentiles should be accepted as they are into the church? The same Paul who said

[QUOTE=Romans 7:17-25]

So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[d] I want to do what is right, but I can’t. I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power[e] within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

[/QUOTE]

The same Paul who said

[QUOTE=Romans 12:9-19]

Don’t just pretend to love others. Really love them. Hate what is wrong. Hold tightly to what is good. Love each other with genuine affection, and take delight in honoring each other. Never be lazy, but work hard and serve the Lord enthusiastically. Rejoice in our confident hope. Be patient in trouble, and keep on praying. When God’s people are in need, be ready to help them. Always be eager to practice hospitality.

Bless those who persecute you. Don’t curse them; pray that God will bless them. Be happy with those who are happy, and weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with each other. Don’t be too proud to enjoy the company of ordinary people. And don’t think you know it all!

Never pay back evil with more evil. Do things in such a way that everyone can see you are honorable. Do all that you can to live in peace with everyone.

Dear friends, never take revenge. Leave that to the righteous anger of God.

[/QUOTE]

Or this

[QUOTE=1 Corinthians 5:9-13]

When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people. It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. 13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.”

[/QUOTE]

Just 1 Corinthians 13 alone should be enough to dispel the idea of “judgemental Paul.”

52

[QUOTE=Magiver]
You forget the actions of Jesus when he attacked the moneychangers. He did not accept the status quo. He drove them out with whips. It is not inconsistent to stand up for what you believe to be right.
[/quote]

How many moneychangers did he kill? Did he bring democracy to the temple?

Well… Duh! That’s why nobody has ever debated them in the last 2000 years. :rolleyes:

53

I have no idea how Christians can justify military service, and it’s upsetting to be asked to pray for soldiers when we are in church on Sunday. There’s no way someone enlisting can know the wars they will ask to fight in will be just ones, and they have given over that power to choose to a secular organization. Taking the skills and beliefs you have and turning them to learning how to kill other people is unbelievable if you claim to be peaceful and loving. No, most soldiers may not end up directly killing someone, but the whole group is responsible for the “mission”.

Of course I am not patriotic at all because eventually that kind of belief would come in conflict with belief in God, and there’s no contest there.

54

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Only love can conquer fear, and perfect love conquers all fear. Start teaching love at all levels of society. That would work eventually, but I think only a very few posting here would agree with this.
[/QUOTE]

I would agree, sister/brother.
Here’s what love does not sound like:
“I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword.”

If he had only stolen some money, maybe
find a brothel…

“I have killed women and children
in your honor”, and that was said
by a real king!

Good gravy, parents, throw that book away.

55

[QUOTE=Sinaijon]
Ah! Skewered enfilade! I admit my error. Der Tris is right. Christians define god as a monster, because their definition of God is monsterly.

[/QUOTE]
Some do, some don’t. The person here trying to push a logical fallacy here is you and not me. No doubt that’s why you essentially tried to say "No, no, using the term ‘No True Scotsman’ isn’t allowed !‘, because that’s just what you are doing. There are, quite literally, millions of Christians who follow versions of God that are hateful, nasty, egomaniacal mass murderers and torturers. You say that’s not what your image of God is like ? Fine, but I’m afraid you are not the official definer of what is and is not True Christianity. There isn’t one; the "God burns unbelievers forever’ Christians have just as much evidence for being "True Christians’ ( none, in other words ) as you do.

56

[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
How many moneychangers did he kill? Did he bring democracy to the temple?
[/QUOTE]
I don’t think he killed anybody but then I don’t think you have to kill someone in order to fight oppression. I’ve stopped bar fights before without killing anyone. And I didn’t realize he had to bring democracy to the temple to satisfy your litmus test but his followers have certainly brought it to many places.

57

[QUOTE=Magiver]
And I didn’t realize he had to bring democracy to the temple to satisfy your litmus test but his followers have certainly brought it to many places.
[/QUOTE]
And taken it away from others. Christianity hasn’t ever been especially friendly towards democracy. Certainly a great many nasty regimes ( up to and including including Hitler’s and the other fascist regimes ) have gotten lots of Christian support, because they opposed “godless Communism”.

58

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
And taken it away from others. Christianity hasn’t ever been especially friendly towards democracy. Certainly a great many nasty regimes ( up to and including including Hitler’s and the other fascist regimes ) have gotten lots of Christian support, because they opposed “godless Communism”.
[/QUOTE]
Who has the United States taken democracy away from?

59

[QUOTE=Magiver]
Who has the United States taken democracy away from?
[/QUOTE]
All of the various countries whose “left wing” elected governments we overthrew in order to install right wing dictatorships. All of the dictators we’ve supported in general certainly haven’t helped democracy.

And I wasn’t speaking of just the US; I was speaking of Christians in general. So, include things like the Catholic Church’s support of fascism, and all the Christians who’ve tried to write their beleifs into law regardless of people’s wishes.

60

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
All of the various countries whose “left wing” elected governments we overthrew in order to install right wing dictatorships. All of the dictators we’ve supported in general certainly haven’t helped democracy.

And I wasn’t speaking of just the US; I was speaking of Christians in general. So, include things like the Catholic Church’s support of fascism, and all the Christians who’ve tried to write their beleifs into law regardless of people’s wishes.
[/QUOTE]
Sounds like an evil bunch. You should consider moving to a Godless country where you’ll be safe.