How do devout Christians justify military service?

Great Debates
101

You appear to have many misconceptions about Christian doctrine. Let me address them one at a time.

First of all, God did do everything possible to avoid having people go to Hell.

Second, God cannot forgive sins effortlessly. It took Him quite a bit of effort to do so.

Thirdly, God has chosen to forgive all people. Some people are not reconciled to God because they chose to reject His forgiveness. A grant of forgiveness requires the agreement of the grantee, just like anything else. If you grant me five thousand bucks and I respond by ripping up your check, there’s nothing you can do to force me to accept the grant.

Fourthly, God does not send people to Hell. People choose to be sinners. God’s grace provides the means to reach Heaven and thereby avoid Hell.

Again, completely incorrect. Satan resists God throughout the Bible, through almost the end of Revelations. Satan cannot defeat God, but can certainly resist the will of God. There’s no reason to believe that Satan had to obey the “away from me!” command, rather Satan realized that tempting Jesus was a lost cause so he gave it up.

God did not make Hell.

(I’m not sure whether the major churches have an explanation for who made Hell. The only explanation I’ve heard comes from John Milton, who’s basic theory as this. God gave Satan & Co. the boot from Heaven, they went crashing downwards and landed at the bottom of primordial chaos and decided to found Hell there.)

Yes, of course there are. It’s just a hell (ahem) of a lot easier with Jesus.

102

The problem is that St. Thomas’ writings are so far-ranging that even abridgements can grow quite lengthy. I believe, as often happens, that Chesterton wrote the best introduction and explanation of St. Thomas in his biography, which also covers lots of useful historical background. The text is also available from Project Gutenberg.

103

For me, who’s never been within a thousand miles of a real battlefield, this is fascinating to read. I can definitely see the logic of what you’re saying here. Obviously the possibility of laying it aside is more doable for some than for others.

There’s a story that on Christmas in 1915, two brigades of British and German soldiers met in “no man’s land” between the trenches, had a party, played soccer, shared food and drinks with each other, and had a grand old time. The next day they went back to their trenches and resumed to process of killing each other. Some might say that this proves the lowly nature of the human race, since the soldiers followed commands to wage war even while knowing their enemies were not bad people. Yet both groups of soldiers certain thought their cause was necessary for the survival of their nation and of civilization.

104

If God created the universe, and is omnipotent and omniscient, then he as good as made Hell.

You realise Paradise Lost is a poem, not church doctrine, right? Milton made a lot of shit up out of whole cloth, AFAICT - there doesn’t seem to be much biblical precedent for Satan creating Hell. Certainly Revelation 20 seems to treat it as a place prepared for Satan by God.:
“1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time…10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

105

Yes. MLK = God. KKK = God’s creation. South = God’s creation. Racism = God’s law. Painting people black = The drives, desires and original sin God saddled humanity with. Please at least try to think before asking questions.

God created the universe. Created satan. Created the rules by which people are damned. He didn’t do everything possible to keep people out of hell. He decided what it takes for people to get into hell, decided that the punishment is eternal, and decided that hell exists in the first place. So please, read up on Christianity and actually think about it, instead of simply parroting chapter and verse without engaging the reason God gave you.

Are you sure you like debates? You seem to be simply denying obvious arguments because they don’t line up with the happy-fuzzy god emotions you’ve grown to feel. You ignore arguments and ask for clarification when they are as clear as angel tears.

I’m sorry if you’re insulted, but you’re stating obvious sillyness. If hell exists god created it. God created the laws of the universe and dictated morality like parker brothers dictated the rules of monopoly.

Okay!

And a good day to you.

106

I guess it was inevitable that this thread would evolve into what Christianity is and isn’t. Certainly there are innumerable variations on the theme, from Mother Teresa to the Inquisition and beyond. My personal understanding is that Christians are called to live their lives as Jesus did, which to me implies that the goal of life on Earth is not to be successful in human terms, but to prepare oneself for the next life in heaven. That means that if an enemy attacks and is preparing to kill you and your loved ones, then resistance is not appropriate. From that perspective, military service would not be appropriate for a Christian, to address the OP. There are clearly passages in the Bible that justify, and even glorify, military conquest, even by following God’s instructions. Those are primarily in the Old Testament, however, and are to be reinterpreted in light of Jesus’s teachings (turn the other cheek, etc.).

I would like to say that I am able to follow my understanding of Christianity, but I don’t even come close. Whether I (or anyone else, for that matter) will burn in hell for that, I don’t know. My personal beliefs teach that by having faith, I will be accepted into heaven, and I do believe that.

But all the pronouncements of who will and won’t be in heaven are, to me, pretty much speculation. I tend to have a pretty inclusive view of who will be there, and I include some pretty nasty characters - whether a person follows one specific set of rituals or another (or even none of them) is irrelevant in my view. God gets to decide, and the Bible is full of examples of what I’ve heard called God’s extreme forgiveness.

Does that mean everyone gets by without any punishment at all? I think that there will be plenty of post-life punishment for those who deserve it (again, according to God’s decision, not any person’s interpretation). In the group of those who deserve it are those who use Christianity to justify the multitude of horrible (and mundane) actions that increase their own status, exclude and persecute others, commit murder and extortion, and on and on. I personally think there could well be a lot more non-Christians in heaven than Christians.

I don’t claim that this interpretation is free of inconsistencies or paradoxes - they’re all over the place. But trying to apply logic to faith is missing the point - it’s not logical to begin with, and faith doesn’t follow the rules of logic. That may be considered an easy out, but as far as I’m concerned, believe what you want. My understanding is that God want everyone to believe in him, but if you don’t, he’ll be able to deal with it how he sees fit.

107

Hell is not part of the universe.

It seems a safe bet that I do, since I already said that it wasn’t church doctrine.

108

:confused:

109

Hell, if it exists, by defenition HAS to exist in accordance with the Universe. We can fall back on the fact that the known Universe is yet completely unknowable, and when we do figure it all out, I’m sure we can pin God and the concept of Hell on another ambiguous defenition.

110

Hmmm. got me thinking. This just might explain the rise of Islam out of Christianity.

111

If it isn’t part of the universe (the Universe being all that is), what exactly is it? And are you saying God has no power there?

I thought it needed re-emphasising, since you seemed to be taking the poet’s version (that Satan created Hell) over the Bible’s (that Hell is a place prepared by God for Satan). I notice you didn’t address the point about Revelation.

112

I believe I just saw your credibility accelerate off to the aforementioned locale.

113

But the Bible says outright that God created Hell:
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

114

Well sure but then I’m not your god. I thought he was omnipotent, or is that only when it suits?

115

Says who? Some major sect of Christainity, or just you?

Says who? Jesus does it regularly without breaking a sweat.

You can’t rip up forgiveness. If I choose to forgive you of something there is not a thing you can do to force me not to. And I’m not even God!

(You gotta watch those analogies. If wishes were horses beggars would ride, but that doesn’t mean beggars can ride wishes. The point being that analogies aren’t always true.)

Says who? Not that grace/forgiveness is how He circumvents his judgements, but rather that He isn’t going to have a Judgement Day at all?

Sure, the caricature called Satan keeps popping up here and there - he’s the stock villian. However, I’ve never heard anything anywhere that indicates that satan has the power to resist God once God gets around to doing something about him. (Prior to that, sure he can. So?) It’s pretty tenuous to claim that Satan always retreats at that first hint of Godly power because he loses interest.

So: Says who?

This has been contradicted quite thorougly, but what the heck - the bible is notorious for supporting both sides of the issue, so somebody probably believes this. Says who?

Regarding there being alternatives: Says who? Besides being perfect to start with (which I understand that mainstream christanity asserts that nobody (else) is).

In summation - I highly doubt that your views are at all representave of the majority of christians. I have no doubt that you hold them, but the fact that you have beliefs and call yourself a Christian does not make you the One True Voice of christianity.

Feel free to show that, in fact, most christains do believe like this, though. I’d be very surprised, but that doesn’t mean it’s not possible.