My authority on questions of this kind is Philip Howard,who writes the Modern Manners column in The Times. He answers almost every question about table manners with "The only bad manners is to disapprove self-righteously of the way that other people eat. Provided that the carrying of food to mouth is done tidily and inconspicuously, the method of carrying it is of the utmost triviality. "
On the subject of manners in general, he says, "The way to learn social skills is by practice. No single tribe or class has a monopoly in good manners. By going out and mingling in the wide world of your friends and acquaintances you learn and teach each other how to get along together. Those who profess to teach manners are either snobs, idiots or charlatans.
Etiquette is not a set of rules, like the Rules of Golf. It is learning how to behave like a human being, and how to treat others as you would like to be treated yourself. "
I think Mr. Howard would tell Podkayne that as long as her husband is cutting his meat neatly and quietly, without drawing attention to himself, then he is being perfectly well-mannered. I would agree.
I think that the attitude you mention expresses the spirit of good manners, SpoilerVirgin but that it doesn’t really work in practice. There is always someone who insists that other people shouldn’t be offended by some egregious crime against good taste because it’s just an arbitrary rule. The one we’ve been discussing is really a very mild example.
Those who profess to teach manners are called “parents,” and to tell your 5-year-old to just “behave like a human being” is to learn just how closely we are related to the other primates. Rules aren’t a bad thing–they help everyone to play nicely together.
I guess I am in the minority here because I think manners do matter and cutting up all you meat like that looks pretty bad. But I also guess manners these days are not what they used to be.
But, in any case, so, pleasing your wife is not a good enough reason to do something?
If my wife asked me to do something just because that’s the way she likes it, I’d do it just because I’d want to please her. A husband who will not please his wife in something like this is a jerk and deserves not being pleased by his wife where it counts. Just MHO.
cher3 - Mr. Howard’s statements about learning etiquette were in answer to an adult asking about the rules, which is why they don’t mention the fact that parents are of course the first source of information about proper behavior.
But the fact that we’ve been discussing a very mild example is exactly the point that I want to make. Manners exist in order to make life easier and more pleasant for everyone. In the 19th century they were also used to differentiate among the classes. This kind of snobbery is no longer either necessary or desirable (if it ever was). The only reason to have rules is so that everyone can play nicely together. And after reading through this entire thread, I fail to see how cutting up all of your meat before you eat it in any way makes life less pleasant for anyone else.
Egregious crimes against good taste are only crimes if they offend people on a more reasonable basis than “this is the way we think it should be done.” Calling someone out for the way he cuts his meat seems to me to be adding to the general level of unpleasantness and discomfort in the world, rather than decreasing it, which is my definition of rude.
And sailor, that pleasing your spouse thing cuts both ways. Podkayne could as easily let her husband cut his meat the way he likes, and smile knowingly at dinner at one of his amusing little quirks.
First off, I want to appologize for the potshot at religion. That was completely uncalled for an inappropriate (not to mention off-topic). Sorry about that.
This thread has got me thinking. I’m going to start a thread in Great Debates about the relevancy of etiquette.
What really surprises me is how many people find the timing in cutting your meat to be a truly important part of the dining experience.
It is not like chewing loudly with great smacking and squishing sounds. It is nothing that actually draws attention ot you.
I am not at all arguing that manners and etiquette are not important (especially if you are at some sort of fancy dinner, though I’ve never been to a really fancy dinner such as this), I just wonder where you draw the line.
“Oh, darling, did you see the way he cut his meat? Really!” (exaspirated).
When eating at places where you don’t want to be imbarasses (lets say at your parents house) call ahead of time and suggest something that is precut or doesn’t need cutting.
He may have a slight physical or mental disability that would make it awkward for him to constantly switch between cutting and eating and back - this may be his way of dealing with it.
Uh, k2dave, you’re going to have to trust me on this one . . . my husband, to whom I have been married three years, whom I have known for ten years, does not have a physical or mental disability that would prevent him from cutting his meat one bite at a time. He has done it in the past without visible difficulty, not to mention that he works in a field (opticianry) that requires excellent hand-eye coordination and manual dexterity.
If he actually had difficulty in doing it properly, then I would never dream of complaining to him about such a small issue.
Damn fool cussedness, on the other hand, that’s another issue. (The peanut gallery is politely requested to withhold their comments regarding who is the damn fool in this situation. --The Management. )
I thought of another tack to take . . . Sort of a variant on the cooling / maintaining our precious fluids angle. When foods are cut into bite-sized pieces before serving, they most often come in a sauce of some kind (beef tips in gravy, Chinese food, etc.) which helps them stay moist and delectable. Yer average chunk of meat has no such protection against the ravages of atmosphere, so it is best to let it remain intact, minimizing its surface area. Trust me, this will fly in our house.
Unfortunately, I think it’d be really dickheaded of me to bring it up apropos of nothing. That would make it sound like I’m really much more wrapped up with it than I am. So I guess you all have to wait until we eat out somewhere nice or get invited to a dinner party for the ultimate result of Podkayne the Control Freak’s Meat-Cutting Thread.
What makes this all complicated is that some manners are common sense, some are learned behavior, and some are people trying to put on airs (classist, as BlackKnight says).
My “manners” are good. They used to be even better before I discovered that some manners, such as tilting a bowl away from you finishing soup, immediately alienate most of the people at the table, who recognize that it’s “well-mannered”, and feel it’s a reflection on their behavior.
It’s never good manners to make other diners feel uncomfortable. I bet Emily Post would agree.
I had adopted the soup behavior because, to me, at least, it made sense. Soup that’s ladled away from you has no chance of spashing on your clothes.
I read a couple books (naturally) on manners. Their language clearly indicated they were intending to draw a class distinction between the “cultivated” reader and others. I wouldn’t have cared so much, except the cultivated rules so quickly became arbitrary. The LAST thing I wanted to do was make a fashion statement eating.
So… I just watch what other people are doing, and do the same thing. That seems like politeness to me.
What’s the etiquette on chicken fried steak covered by cream gravy?
Way back when I was in college, etiquette was taught by the housemothers in the women’s dorms—guys were encouraged to attend but it wasn’t mandatory. IIRC, a lot of emphasis was put on men standing when a lady joins or exits an intimate gathering—a table, or a small group in a room. Cutting one’s meat a bite at a time, or “a few” bites at a time also got a lot of attention. I needed an edge with the women and I have found that good manners never hurt my chances------besides that, good manners are, well, they are just good manners.
Because the steak loses it’s juice. Well frankly, the steak loses it’s juice onto the same plate with the steak, so all you have to do is mop the piece in the juice and it’s good to go.
With this is the “rudeness to the chef for not appreciating their work of art.” I’ll echo what someone said before - “puh-leez.” Yes, I have a lot of respect for the culinary arts and no it isn’t easy to create something really good. It arrives at my table, I admire it, and I but it up and eat it. Rude would be sending it back saying it was horrible and looked atrocious.
Because it’s wrong. I agree with the majority of you (notice I didn’t say you were correct, just that I agree…) that manners are important. If a guy chews with his mouth open, slurps, etc, that’s going to seriously bother me. But a lot of people are also refusing the believe that there are SOME (not all) manners that are arbitrary. It seems that yes, this particular one probably derived from keeping the meat warm and juicy. Cutting it all up at once does not prevent conversation. It’s just not what YOU do, and when it comes to manners, a lot of people seem to think that if it’s not what they were taught to do, it’s wrong.
In fact, I don’t usually cut up all my meat at once, unless I’m reading a book, because it’s annoying to put the book down all the time. But that’s only at lunch. But were I to cut all my meat at once, it doesn’t impact the meal of the other people (it doesn’t make any noises, it allows me to pay more attention to them during the meal).
If it bothers you, by all means, discuss it with your husband, tell him it bothers you. But realize that maybe he just really likes it that way. I wouldn’t want someone telling me, say, that I have to eat soup with a soup spoon just because of manners. A spoon is a spoon. It’s a functional thing and thinking it’s bad manners to use a teaspoon is very arbitrary. Now, if I were chewing that steak with my mouth open…
Poddy, it seems to me that your husband, if he is indeed as clever as you say he is, would have noticed by now on his own that meat tends to cool more quickly and give up its juices when cut up and determined that he is not bothered by it.
Therefore, the only argument that is likely to hold any water is the “pleasing one’s spouse” one. So, since this appears to be quite important to you, one would hope that your husband would accede on that basis. I’m wondering how much his refusal to comply is simple stubbornness and resistance to nagging. Do you want this to become a perpetual battleground? How important is it, really? I understand the importance of manners in general, but sometimes becoming entrenched over a relatively minor issue is sheer silliness.
Yes, it’s bad manners to cut the meat up all at once. But his mom and sister already know he does this, and if they didn’t fix him before you took over, when he does it in front of them, it’s their problem
As for humiliating you, it has nothing to do with you. His bad manners are not your bad manners. But if you refrain from chastising him in public about it, it shows those watching that you know that correcting someone else is worse manners and that you are sensitive to his feelings.
At some point, you may wish to point out to him logical reasons he might want to change. This won’t work if doesn’t want to better himself. But suppose he is somewhere at a business dinner and does this. The other people might not notice, but then again they might. There are ways to do things, and ways not to do things. They may well conclude that he is uneducated (or worse that he knows and is doing it wrong anyway) and not the right person to do business with. It’s kinda like a business golf game. Friends who play with each other a lot know when it is okay to hit out of turn. Strangers might not say anything, but it might piss them off mightily.
It’s also a maturity thing. Yes, young men eat this way. I did. But as you get older, and you are among company, it becomes important to you to put the people around you at ease. Eating slowly and not like a machine helps do that.
I don’t do this but I asked my wife about it, since she partakes in power-lunches with CEOs and such on a regular basis, and she, for one, has never heard of this being considered bad manners. At the most, it’s just different, but she would never consider anybody breaching etiquette by doing this, FWIW.
Why do all of you supporting the “bad manners say you shouldn’t do this” think that cutting up all your food makes you eat faster and like a machine? The OP didn’t say anything about him bolting his food, not talking at dinner, and all in all stuffing his face.
If he happens to cut up his food first, this doesn’t make him unsociable.
Why do all of you supporting the “bad manners say you shouldn’t do this” think that cutting up all your food makes you eat faster and like a machine? The OP didn’t say anything about him bolting his food, not talking at dinner, and all in all stuffing his face.
If he happens to cut up his food first, this doesn’t make him unsociable.
I recommend eating only chinese food. IT IS ALREADY cut up in most cases, so, problem solved.
An IMHO it is bad manners to do this, and it does look silly and there is no point to it, plus it makes the original poster unconfortable, so if the husband is above age 12, he should stop it, or they could just stay home and scarf down TV dinners with a big wooden spoon every night. Then she would not feel uncofortable.
It doesn’t look silly to everyone…I think a slim majority of people here are saying that it’s totally arbitrary and that it’s not bad manners, just personal preference. In that case, it’s a question of communicating and if it seriously bugs her, then he should maybe do something about it. But I don’t think it should be based on the grounds of manners, just preference and what she perceives as a fault that disturbs her.
(The peanut gallery is politely requested to withhold their comments regarding who is the damn fool in this situation. --The Management. 
)