Don’t you look for character clues in human behavior? Not doing that is . . . alien to me. Trying to force a woman to touch your hand is NOT fine. It is brutish behavior that should be condemned.
Actually, if the offeree just kepts their hands to themselves or asks if shaking hands is appropriate, no gets offended or embarassed. It’s much easier that way and avoid conflict. Where as the offer, no I can’t it’s against my religion, etc., easily leads to more conflict.
Then don’t cite religion. When I do not wish to shake hands with someone, I just join my hands in front of me and bow slightly while saying “please excuse me for not shaking hands” and going straight to the conventional “it’s nice to meet you”. I’ve never gotten flack from anyone, and I don’t care if they think I’m a gramophone, have arthritis or religious convections.
Just out of curiosity, ZPG Zealot, what line of work are you in that you seem to deal with such unsavory characters?
Except that in this culture, shaking hands IS appropriate. It may not be for certain individuals, but they don’t get to decide what’s appropriate in wider society. I’ve known people who wouldn’t shake hands for various reasons. They are polite and just decline, and no one gives them any trouble about it.
IF a woman declines, for whatever reason (religious, cultural, whimsical, whatever), or obviously seems uncomfortable with shaking hands, THEN, IF the guy persists in trying to do so, he’s not respecting her boundaries and is 1) an ass and 2) someone who should be watched carefully, because not-respecting-boundaries is a red flag for all sorts of troublesome attitudes.
Really, it does make sense in that situation. It’s basic Gift of Fear stuff.
The problem is that ZPG didn’t phrase it well in her first post, plus to most of us shaking hands is such an automatic thing and a sign of respect that it’s hard to immediately imagine someone feeling uncomfortable thereby.
How did you get such a rational interpretation out of all that crazy? (Calling someone “an incredibly rude jerk” for offering to shake hands … bringing rape into a conversation about business ettiquette … drawing an analogy between shaking hands and touching a penis …)
In her first post, she called a man a rude jerk for holding out his hand to be shaken. Which is a bit of an overreaction. Being offended that the person couldn’t shake his hand is not reasonable, IMO, but he’s not a rude jerk for offering.
Hmm, I’ve thought about this some years after it happened, and the subject seems appropriate. I worked for an Orthodox man for a couple of years. He didn’t shake hands, of course, and we regularly swapped chairs so that didn’t seem to be an issue. I always thought the not shaking hands was just a part of a bigger rule of no touching between unmarried men and women in general. But this one time…
He had neck problems. I was aware of his frequent chiropractor visits to help with it. One day he was having a problem and asked me to try to therapeutically rub his neck to alleviate some pain. I have no idea how to do this, but tried nonetheless - I needed to use my knuckles to help the vertebrae “adjust” I guess. Anyway, I kind of felt dirty the whole time, because I was touching him, and I thought that was against the rules. Maybe because it was a mitigating circumstance? He really was uncomfortable and what I did seemed to help a little. Or it mattered less because I’m not Jewish?
Anaamika and purplehorseshoe won’t be rejoining the discussion unless they find a signal from my basement.
If I offer my hand to you am I insisting on trying to get you to shake my hand?
It just so happens that not shaking people’s hands is something that I do when I’m out sometimes (along with saying “Good name!” to every guy who tells me his name). I’ve never had a single person “insist” on shaking my hand. Is the mere attempt “insisting”?
Sorry, but if someone refuses a handshake for any other reason than health (they have an autoimmune disorder or have huge open sores) or genuine discomfort (you’re in a dark alley at 3am) then they’re full of shit. I don’t care if it’s cultural or religious. It’s bullshit, and it fundamentally means that I am beneath you. Since when is wanting a secularized society a bad thing?
Bolding mine. You wanna be the crazy? Fine. I hope it hinders you in your job. You don’t get to decide what’s appropriate for wider society.
Society isn’t secularized. Our government is, but we all have a right to our own culture within our society. But either which way, everyone has the right to do what they feel comfortable with, and if you don’t like it, that’s actually pretty rude on your part. And it doesn’t actually mean at all that you are beneath anyone, it’s a modesty rule for some people.
Whoops sorry, that wasn’t directed negatively toward you, I was agreeing with you.
If you’re working in the meat department and have dietary or handling restrictions, that’s a problem. Ditto if the job requires you work on Saturdays or Sundays and it’s your ‘holy day’.
