How do we fix the wounds in America?

America has made a lot of progress in fighting racism – I will acknowledge at least that much. By many metrics, the quality of life of black Americans, though still comparatively low, has improved greatly over the past several decades (with some hiccups here and there, like the Great Recession).

In some ways I do understand what some of the posters are saying. Newer generations of people relate less to the racial conflict of the past, and so without that background, it is perhaps a natural question to ask “Why is it important for me to care about the past? I had nothing to do with it.”

Understood.

But the whole point is that all of us inherit the past, whether we choose to or not. As someone else said up thread, all of us have an opportunity and a responsibility in the present to correct the impact of racist policies. The present generation has an opportunity to improve race relations, but this first requires accepting the social responsibility for taking reasonable measures toward improving the welfare of people.

There was a recent article in Politico that talked about the de-Nazification of Germany. The Germans who lived through the Nazi experience were resistant to give up their ideology and many simply regretted being on the losing end of the war (not unlike the Japanese in WWII). It was actually the children of Nazis who took ownership of German Nazism and who wanted a broader national discussion on what happened in the 1920s and 30s. You don’t see Nazi statues. There are a few buildings remaining but they are either mostly nondescript or they are, like one example in Berlin, used as museums to warn people against nationalism and fascism.

Modern Germany differs from the United States in that it has a deeper sense of commitment to the welfare of the population as a hole, and you can see this in some other countries as well. When you have a society that embraces the idea that ‘We should all succeed and try to help others who aren’t succeeding’ then you tend to see poorer people as less of a ‘cost’ or a ‘burden’ to those who are more prosperous. And in America, because race has been inextricably linked to American capitalism and class, it is natural that conservative white Americans look at black Americans as costs, as losers who are unfit to survive in American society. That’s because their ancestors did everything in their power to create blacks as an economic and political underclass - everything from ripping their family structures apart, to denying the ability to read (this was a LAW on the books), to denying them the ability to attend decent schools after they were ‘freed’, to denying them the right to vote, allowing whites to keep them from getting good jobs, allowing whites to prevent them from getting good housing, and doing everything possible to prevent them from becoming integrated into the economic, political, and social mainstream of society. Not for one generation, not for two, but for many, many generations over several centuries.

Even now, the attitudes of conservative Americans in many cases is that just wish the problem would somehow disappear on its own - they don’t want to pay the costs yet they’re completely fine with blacks have to pay for the costs of centuries of abuse. Their mentality is like that of a petroleum company that spills billions of gallons of oil on the beaches of a fishing village and rather than do the right thing and clean it up, would just rather move somewhere else and let others deal with the consequences.

Will you stop this? My ancestors had nothing to do with creating “blacks as an economic and political underclass”. They weren’t even in the country when all the stuff you mentioned happened.

Case in point. We cannot fix the wounds in america, if we refuse to recognize or take responsibility for the wounds.

My ancestors had nothing to do with it either. Most of my family came later, in the 1870-80’s, some as indentured servants. The rest of my family from before the 1860’s fought for the north.

I can still recognize the wounds, I can still recognize the generational oppression that has been used against minorities.

It’s not my fault, it’s not my ancestors fault, but I can still take responsibility for it. I can still see that there is a problem that needs to be fixed.

All it seems you can see is that there needs to be someone to blame, and you are sure as shit you aren’t going to let it be you.

How about you forget who is to blame for a bit, and just focus on what needs to be done to fix the problem?

Who benefitted from black tribes in Africa raiding the villages of other black tribes and taking their fellow black Africans captive?

Who benefitted from the sale of those captured black Africans to African slave traders?

Who benefitted from the sale of those black Africans to foreign (non-African) slave traders?

Slavers

Slavers

Slavers

[quote]

What’s your point?

It doesn’t matter whether YOUR relatives were responsible or not. You could be a white immigrant from Russia and the fact is you’re less likely to get harassed by the police than a black man whose family has been here for generations. It’s not at all coincidental that white conservatives have clearly embraced a first lady who is white, a non-native, and who once broke immigration laws over a black first lady who graduated from Princeton and Harvard.

In any case, I think you are proving my point, which is that white conservatives try to disassociate themselves from responsibility of trying to help improve the lives of other people. Most conservatives are simply concerned with trying to improve their own lives and those of their own immediate family and neighbors. I’m not saying that to demean conservatives - I think that’s been their philosophy, which is that if each person would just work on improving their own situation, we’d all be better off. I get that and it might seem to have at least some surface validity; however, real life is more complex than that.

Race relations will probably oscillate between good and bad periods until we fundamentally change the underlying values in America so that they embrace a more socialized form of capitalism and a value system that looks out for more than just me, myself, and I. I suspect that this sort of sea change will occur as a result of some sort of major national emergency - one that requires cooperation on a large scale. The last time we had that was the Great Depression and World War II. And I would imagine that had society not been so regressive in the 1930s and 40s I suspect we could have achieved a lot back then. Indeed, relatively speaking, we achieved a lot, and many of the seeds of progress were laid in those decades, which later gave rise to the Civil Rights struggles of the 50s and 60s.

No, in the real world most of the people in this country declared ‘We the people have had enough of this shit’ and put Republicans in charge of the House, the Senate, Supreme Court nominations, the Presidency, and most of the country’s state governorships. People like you love to focus on Trump and 3% difference between his votes and Hillary’s in a national contest that doesn’t exist, but the fact is that wrong-headed, divisive, hate-and-anger driven leftie activism has put your opponents in charge of this country in a way that is going to resonate and perhaps dominate for decades.

That may be true for heterosexual, male, mainstream Protestant, middle and upper class American white people, but not for many other which is something far too many black people fail to grasp.

Hey, you’re the one making the argument that it does. If you don’t think what my ancestors did matters then your point falls apart. This is what you said:

If what my ancestors did doesn’t matter then you can’t use that as a justification for the way conservative white Americans supposedly look at black Americans.

Talk to asahi s/he’s the one that brought up the who is to blame bit.

That’s not what they said. They were talking about the historical issues of how we came to be in this position.

You took it personally, and accused them of blaming your ancestors personally.

If you had read anything past the first sentence of asahi’s post that you snipped and replioed to, you would have seen that your concerns were all addressed in the rest of the post.

That you just snipped the first sentence and responded with a “nu-uh” tells me that you did not pay any attention to the rest of the post. The worst part of it, is that you actually think that you scored some points with that fallacy.

So, to lay things out, we are not talking about your genetic ancestors, we are not talking about my genetic ancestors, we are talking about the past, and the people who were around in the past, and the people who created the situation that lead us here to today. The fact that you are personally not related to them is utterly irrelevant. You still benefit from what they did, and minorities still suffer from what they did.

That is what needs to be addressed, the harm that our fore-fathers created, and left as a legacy for us to clean up. Your attempts at deflecting by acting as though you are the injured party because you have chosen to take it as a personal insult to your genetic ancestors does not actually change anything.

Who says we in this generation didn’t learn about the evils of the past or that we should not care about others? We have had this stuff pounded into our heads from the beginning.

In school we learned about people like Rosa Parks and MLK. We learned about the horrors of slavery and Jim Crow. We learn to care about people and the environment. We know we should accept other regardless of background or skin tone.

Quick story: Louisburg Kansas. The district had been all white all along until the 80’s. Then they told the students that they will soon have their first black students enrolling. the reaction? Cheers! The kids wanted some diversity. They knew being an all white school was wrong.

Another tidbit, my small town in South Dakota just accepted its second black family moving in.

Now after saying that - reality hits. We get to high school and see some scholarships are only available to non-whites. We see the reality that the black kids sit at one table, the Hispanics another, and the whites another. And we see the teachers do the same. Yeah, we get privilege. We see athletes getting special treatment. We see who is popular and who is not.

As for “white people do not know what its like to be a minority” I beg to differ. At my work for example whites are the minority. I can go to many neighborhoods where whites are the minority. As for police, black cops can pull over whites just as well.

So can you be more specific about what we are supposed to do? Are you talking reparations or something?

“Genetic ancestors” are the only kind I’ve got.

If you feel that whites suffer in some cases, Suck it up! This is what blacks have been told to do and are still told to do.

Do you sincerely believe that, overall, white men get less of a good shake than minority groups, e.g. blacks, do in this country? If you do, then (post your evidence in a different thread please) you may feel justified in doing what blacks do; for example marching with White Lives Matter placards if your statistics show that whites are the group more likely to be mistreated by the police and justice systems.

Sincere question: Assuming you feel that racism against whites is a bigger problem than racism against blacks, and decide to organize a protest, will you encourage KKK members and anti-Semites to march with you?

It’s central to his argument. The point of the post is roughly Americans look at some groups as costs and conservative white Americans look at blacks that way because of their ancestors actions. Without that last link the post doesn’t have anything to do with race relations.

Are you asking me how to undo 150 years of racial discrimination, and heal the scars that that has left upon our people? That requires the perspectives and input of quite a number of people.

I am just trying to get people to acknowledge that there is a problem, and that a discussion about is needed. That is hard enough. When you mention that there is a problem, people like to take it personally, and use deflection tactics, so that you are now talking about something entirely different, like Treis trying to derail it and make it all about him and his ancestors, rather than about the history of the united states.

Now, if you are asking me, and I have no idea why you brought up reparations, as if that is the only way to address hundreds of years of oppression, I would start with no longer commemorating and honoring those who fought against the country. I think that letting the south think that it only lost because it wasn’t strong enough, and not because the reasons that it was fighting for were reprehensible keeps that wound open. As long as statues of confederate leaders grace public squares outside of the city hall or library, white supremacists are inspired to continue their fight.

So, yeah, first step, get rid of all the confederate symbolism that is displayed by the govt in non-museum settings. Rename the military bases that are named for confederate leaders. Have a president who is actually capable of condemning white supremacists without equivocating.

That’s a start, see where we are when that’s done.

But, like I said, first, we have to convince the treis’s of the world that this is a discussion that is worth having.

It is not central to his argument that they be your personal genetic ancestors.

It is only central to his argument that people like that set up the systems that we currently live under.

For many americans, those two groups of people are one and the same, and so his argument works with no qualifications at all.

For the exceptions like myself or yourself, it is still relevant, as we still live in a society that was created by those people, and still live with the benefits and detriments of that society.

Can you understand why your offense that your personal ancestors had nothing to do with slavery is completely irrelevant to the situations that we are all facing today?

Is there a reason that it does have to be just about you?

Again, here is what he said:

If there’s no link between those sentences then there is no reason for conservative white Americans to view black Americans as costs.

My position is that what my personal ancestors did or did not do is completely irrelevant to the situations we are facing today. Children are not culpable for the sins of their fathers nor do they have the duty to fix them. Our collective duty is to set up a country that is fair and where everyone has an equal opportunity to thrive.

I can read what he said. I just don’t know what you think repeating it over and over will do.

If you replace the word “ancestor” with “predecessor” does that fix things for you?

“…because their predecessors did everything in their power…”

And my position is the same. You personal ancestors are irrelevant, utterly irrelevant, but you are the one who brought them up as if their integrity were being impugned.

While I do agree that children are not culpable for the sins of their fathers, they do have the duty to fix the problems they created. If they don’t fix them, they don’t get fixed, or they pass them down to their children to fix. You say that we have a duty to create a society of equality, but you also claim that you have no obligation to fix the problems that our predecessors created that keep it from being a society of equality.