How do we know about agricultural subsidies and inefficiency?

I’m 99% sure, even in my thundering ignorance of economics, that agricultural subsidies are a bad idea for the economy at large and we’d be better off without them.

So I know the logic presented below is wrong, but I’d like to know how we know it’s wrong, if there’s any clearly faulty logical step or empirical evidence we could point to that shows the reasoning below is wrong:

  1. Agricultural subsidies drive down prices of food.
  2. Low food prices free up income in all economic strata of the population to be spent as discretionary income.
  3. Higher discretionary income increases demand for more complex goods than agricultural goods. (Just for example, computers)
  4. Higher demand for complex goods (like computers) means demand for a more educated workforce, a wider variety of jobs than are needed for the production of agricultural goods, more creativity and innovation than are needed for agricultural goods. On the face of it, all good things for the economy.

My suspicion is that there’s some way to show that agricultural subsidies don’t provide enough additional demand to produce the benefits listed in #4, but I’m not sure how one would go about measuring that.

Many thanks in advance for your replies. :slight_smile:

Step 1 is the flaw. Most Ag subsidies are in the form of “price supports”. In other words, they are designed to keep the price artificially high.

Subsidies are paid for in the form of taxes which means the amount people saved is spent on higher taxes. That’s the first and most obvious flaw.

No, they don’t.

Food is an essential commodity. People have no choice but to eat. As a result the price of food is determined primarily by competition. A farmer doesn’t care if the cost of producing milk is 25c a litre or $1 a litre. All she cares about is how much she can sell it for. If she can sell it at for $1.50 a litre then she will sell it for that price regardless of whether it cost 25c or $1 to produce.

The only way that subsidies could drive down the price of food is if the market is highly competitive, which it isn’t. In that case competition between suppliers might drive the price down under a subsidy system, but only at the expense of other products that are actually cheaper. So subsidised milk might make milk 50c cheaper in such a marketplace, but only by increasing the price of soy-milk by 49c.

It’s very near a zero-sum game. People have to eat, so food can be produced at a certain cost and sold at a certain profit. If the cost is artificially lowered then the profit on that food is increased, causing farmers to produce that product instead of marginally less profitable alternative.

Secondly, as Cheshire Human points out, most subsidies are effectively price supports and exist to keep prices inflated. You could buy (as an example) sugar from Panama much cheaper than corn syrup from the US, except that US agricultural subsides drive the prices of US syrup down to the point that the market can never be opened. The result is that while US syrup is cheaper, the price of sugar as whole is much higher than it would be without the subsidy.

No.

As noted, the subsidy money has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is taxation. Taxation removes income in all economic strata of the population to be lost from discretionary income. Moreover because taxation and redistribution is inherently inefficient there is far more money lost than the value of the subsidies

Subsidies also promote inefficient, traditional farming practices. That means demand for an educated workforce, a narrower variety of jobs and less creativity and innovation.

While it is commonly believed that agriculture doesn’t require education and innovation, that isn’t true in a competitive marketplace. Subsidies come at the cost of jobs for engineers, extensionists, agronomists etc. If agriculture is competitive then it will attract investment and innovation just as any other industry. The rot sets in when there is no incentive to be innovative.

Huh? The price of food is determined by supply and demand. Insofar as subsidies make producing foodstuffs a more economically attractive proposition they will tend to increase supply which will tend to depress prices.

Not really.

The demand for food is constant within very, very narrow bounds. People need a specific number of calories to live, and even obese people only eat about 2% more than people in the healthy weight range.

Think about it this way: If I agreed to pay half your grocery bill tomorrow, would you actually buy more groceries? Or would you simply change to more expensive brands that contain exactly the same amount of food?

What this demonstrates is that the price of food is determined almost entirely on the supply side. IOW competition, as I stated.

You could argue that the price of a food is determined by supply and demand. For example the price of milk is determined by the demand for milk as opposed to soy milk, and I addressed why this isn’t really applicable already.

I already addressed this.

To simplify:

We have four farmers, one growing growing soybeans and two grazing dairy cows. Assume for simplicity that the calorific and protein values of the foods are identical. Two farmers have land that is most profitable for dairy, and they produce milk at the equivalent $4 profit/ha. One has land most suited to soybeans and produces soybeans at the equivalent of $4 profit/ha.

The final farmer has land that can produce soybeans at a profit of $2/ha. The same land an be used to graze dairy cows at a profit of $1.50/ha. Without subsidies the farmer will produce soybeans, because they are more profitable. Give her a a subsidy of $0.51 dollars per hectare and she will produce milk.

If the price of milk then falls by the equivalent of $0.01/ha, she will switch back to soybeans, requiring a subsidy of $0.52 to produce milk, which will then cause a further fall in milk prices, ad infinitum.

Moreover, half the farms that were producing soybeans have ceased production and soybeans are now more expensive than milk. That means that if demand remains static, prices must double, or alternatively the final farmer will also have to abandon soybeans and switch to dairy to remain competitive.

If soybean demand remains static then the effect of our $0.52 (26%) milk subsidy has been to increase milk production by 25%, decrease soybean production by 50%, decrease the price of milk by $0.02 (0.5%) and double the price of soybeans. The net result is that the consumer loses.
If soybean demand decreases then soybean production on the fourth farm will decrease. Let’s say it decreases by 20%. Net result our $0.52 (26%) milk subsidy has been to increase milk production by 30% (one whole farm + 20% of another), decrease soybean production by 55%, decrease the price of milk by $0.02 (0.5%) and increase the the price of soybeans by at least 22%. The net result is still that the consumer loses.

Which is just what happens in the real world. Subsidies can be used to promote the inefficient use of land, but they don’t increase the net amount of food produced. Nor can they depress prices to a value anywhere even close the value of the subsidy.

The only possible way that subisidies can make a meaningful impact on food prices is if the subsidy is so high that it becomes more profitable to produce human food rather than stockfeed or fibre. That way more food is produced than the market can actually use, leading to excess, waste and dumpage, but driving overall food prices down while driving the price of meat and fibre up.

Just because demand is inelastic doesn’t mean supply is. Moreover, with lower prices demand will shift towards meat, which in turn increases demand for feed grains.

If you can somehow demonstrate that agricultural products are immune from basic economic principles, I should be very interested to see it.

Umm, you just repeated exactly what I have said in every post in this thread.

What, you expect people to read and understand posts in GQ before posting themselves? Do you have a different Internet there in Old Blighty than in the U.S.? :slight_smile:

Anyway, for the OP: How about a real life example of what an agricultural subsidy does to the market? Why Congress Should Repeal Sugar Subsidy.

It’s an anti-Democratic rant by a libertarian, so you have to ignore those parts of it (the Republicans did not, of course, repeal the sugar subsidy in 2007: only someone from the Cato Institute could imagine such a thing), but the facts seem to be detailed and accurate.

The sugar subsidy costs U.S. buyers at least a dime a pound. That makes his $2 billion estimate of consumer losses plausible.

Agricultural subsidies drive up prices because they allow for a closed market. You’re getting subsidized U.S. sugar at a below cost rate rather than even cheaper foreign sugar. Closed markets are artificial monopolies, so prices in them will always be higher than in open markets. That’s something so simple even a libertarian can spot it.

OK, so I have to admit to being more confused than when I posted the question. It seems some economists found through googling (and the ones I heard on the radio before posting the OP) are of the opinion that subsidies reduce the price of the good subsidized:

From http://www.oxfamamerica.org/files/paying-the-price.pdf

So let me start with a more basic question - do subsidies reduce the price of the good subsidized or not?

I don’t think that anybody disputes that subsidies drive down prices of the specific subsidised product for the immediate future. That’s prety much inherent in the definition of a subsidy The questions are rather:

  1. Does it drive down prices of the class of goods general (eg does subsidising cotton makes clothes cheaper, or only cotton clothes?)

  2. Is it an efficient way of achieving any goal at all beyond pork barreling?

  3. Does it result in a long term increase or decrease in prices.

  4. Does this apply to a market like food, where the demand is fixed.

The answers to those questions appear to be No, No, Increase and No respectively.

Subsisdies aren’t in any way efficient for the reasons I gave above. US cotton is subsidised at around 50% of the value of the product. Cotton prices are reduced by about 3% as a result. That 3% is enough to make US cotton competitive on the world market, but it is a hideously inefficient way of providing people with cheap clothes. It would be far, far more efficient to give very US citizen a 20 dollar clothing voucher every year. That would cost about as much and have the effect of actually making clothes $20 cheaper for US citizens. Instead the US spends the same amount of money and makes cotton clothing a few cents cheaper on every garment… at best.
Subsidising cotton leads to an immediate decrease in the price of cotton without a doubt. However it has the net effect of driving up the price of what should be cheaper alternatives such as wool or nylon. By denying wool and nylon producers market share and market certainty you decrease investment in those products, which in turn allows an increase in cotton prices. In an unregulated market that increase in cotton prices would see people investing back into wool and nylon, but because subsidies can be enacted far faster than investment can be returned, nobody does. So cotton prices are actually increased due to the cotton subsidy.

And finally, none of this applies to a market like food, where the demand is fixed. People can choose how much cotton they buy so a subsidy can encourage greater consumption. However people have to buy exactly the same amount of food every year regardless of price. So subsidies can’t encourage increased consumption if food. At best subsidies can decrease the price of the food product subsidised, but at the cost of increasing prices of food generally.

Subsidies are part of the long continuum between perfectly free and totally regulated markets.

Even the most vocal free marketers can be shown to want government interference in the marketplace. They want consumers and producers free to make and buy, to get materials, set up plants, create stores, ship products, etc. They want courts to settle disputes and police to stop criminal activities. They want copyright, trademark, and patent protections. As the current example of Russia shows, you can’t take all this for granted.

In American history, the most laissez-faire period of industrialized government, the late 19th century, has been shown to be not government neutral, but highly government protective - of manufacturers and against workers. The government also threw up large trade barriers - tariffs - that European governments complained vociferously about, because the U.S. industrial economy has grown larger than theirs and hardly needed protection.

Tariffs are another bit of government interference with a free market that are eagerly sought by those in the market. Tariffs are similar to subsidies in their effect. They change the free flow of goods to favor a local product. Americans made a deliberate trade-off in that period. In order to protect American jobs in a period of enormous population growth and the massive internal shift of farm laborers to the city, they accepted the raised prices for goods that resulted.

That also meant they had to accept monopolies, the more than 300 industries that organized into trusts. This was a market distortion of titanic proportion.

Eventually, both monopolies and tariffs passed out of favor, although the damage that tariffs did took the crash of 1929 and lengthened it into the Great Depression. (Smoot-Hawley was a 1930 tariff act meant to protect American manufacturers but that and the refusal to go off the gold standard sunk any possibility of recovery because other countries adopted better policies and the U.S. couldn’t compete.)

Yes, government regulation of a free market produces distortions. Some distortions are considered highly favorable by some. Some distortions may even work to the total economy’s benefit. Many safety and environmental regulations may increase product costs but benefit the society as a whole.

So what about subsidies? Subsidies are like tariffs. They are governmental responses to particular conditions in selected industries that are deemed essential to overall societal benefit. The problem comes in the words particular, selected, and essential. Who decides these? How? And what happens when conditions change?

Many agricultural subsidies in the U.S. grew out of decisions to protect farmers. Farmers entered a depression state in 1920. It was called a depression by contemporaries. The entire decade was a poor one overall. However, by the time the rest of the country went into depression they had recovered enough to overproduce for what was now greatly lowered demand. Farmers dumped milk and burned crops because that cost less than trying to harvest them.

The government started a series of programs to pay farmers to not grow crops. Amazingly, many of these programs are still in place.

Other crops, like the aforementioned sugar and cotton, started demanding subsidies after world market conditions changed. The sugar trust owned governments as well as mere plantations in the Caribbean and Latin America. Once they were forced away from essentially being slavers they fought to marginalize the cheaper foreign sugars by American subsidies. Cotton and a host of other goods have similar stories, though the particulars change.

So when you ask what affect subsidies have on a market, you have to look at the entire market, from producer to consumer, local and worldwide, specialized and general. That incredible range of effects is much harder to calculate and honest economists, if there are such a thing, could easily disagree with the answers.

As citizens, you have to ask what subsidies are designed to accomplish, whether that is a worthwhile government policy for the entire economy rather than just the receivers, and if the conditions that forced the subsidy even still exist.

Most people now agree that almost all tariffs are bad for the total economy, which is why they have basically disappeared. I’d argue that for most agricultural subsidies, any conditions that might have been favorable to their institution have changed so drastically that they can’t be justified.

The problem with removing subsidies is that those who get hurt are easy to identify and easy to accumulate into a pressure group. Those who benefit are numerous and diffuse and probably wouldn’t notice much change over the full course of a year. If sugar subsidies cost U.S. consumers $2 billion, that saves each person $6 a year. Who goes to war against entrenched power over six bucks?

But as Everett Dirkson said, a billion here and a billion there and pretty soon you’re talking about real money. Subsidies as a whole cost the U.S. government around $10 billion in direct tax dollars. They probably cost the economy several times that in increased consumer costs. It’s hard to argue that’s an advantage except to agribusinesses.

First of all, there is nothing wrong with subsidies-provided one accepts that the extra costs are worth the higher prices.
Take the US sugar industry-we pay a retail price for sugar (here in the USA), because there is a tariff on imported sugar… This tariff allows domestric producers to produce sugar profitably. If we allowed imports in at the world prices, sugar farming in Florida would be unprofitable.
So, the sugar farmers (mostly the Fanjool family) benefit, their workers benefit, the sugar consumers don’t.
In the long run, price subsidies distort the market, and encourage production of certain products at the expense of others. Another example of this is the Egyptian governemn-they subsidize the cost of bread (a staple food for the poor). This means that farmers can buy bread cheaper than animal feed-which leads to domestic animals consuming bread-an undesireable situation.
Or the corn subsidies paid to USA farmers (this is to allow ethyl alcohol) to be produced. The farmers make money, the alcohol distillers make money, but the USA consumer pays higher taxes and prices (for the alcohol-gasoline blend), and the USA winds up importing even MORE oil (and producinh more CO2 and “greenhouse” gases.
Whether this is a desireable result is left for the reader.

There are other reasons that govts get involved. One problem is the boom and bust cycle of agriculture. There is a bad harvest and prices go up. Farmers see high prices and plant more. Then prices drop and farmers may not be able to recoup the cost, never mind turn a profit. In the theoretical world the invisible hand would create equilibrium, but in practice it takes a year to get the next crop; farmer’s can’t just make little tweaks along the way like a widget maker could. Also, droughts, floods, and other factors can effect a huge proportion of the harvest. Not all intervention is good, maybe not even most, but not all are bad.

The US has the most productive farms in the world due in part to programs like County Extension Agents. We must be doing something right.

Income insurance, forward contracts, futures contracts, hedging and any number of instruments I don’t know about are all open to farmers to even out their income through good year and bad.

Problems with Austrian School economic analysis with regards to agriculture:

-Farmers lack information, therefore can’t really behave as rational producers in a free market. There is no way of knowing what next year’s weather will be. They don’t know what or how much all of the competitors will be planting. Most importantly they don’t know what the free market price for their crops will be.

-Farmers are very reluctant to give up farming. Low prices typically drive each farmer to try to produce more, rather than to find a more profitable line of work. This drives prices even lower, causing farmers to plant even more to try to raise their income. This was a contributing factor to the great dust bowl of the 1930’s.

-There are serious barriers to entry for new producers. Most farms can produce but one crop per year. Orchards may require a decade or more to start producing. Many livestock herds can only be expanded by 10% or so per year if current production is maintained.

-If the most efficient site for production is in a foreign country, then the nation’s food supply becomes subject to international politics. When the USSR was forced to buy wheat from the US, it was a harbinger of that nations pending demise. We have seen how US dependence on foreign oil has warped foreign policy. Imagine if 3/4 of our wheat came from abroad.

At it’s core, the point of US farm policy is to insure that producers can operate profitably while producing enough of a surplus in good or normal years to insure adequate supply in the worst years.

I would argue than some policies and subsidies are wasteful. I would never argue for letting US agriculture sink or swim on the whims of free market forces.

“So let me start with a more basic question - do subsidies reduce the price of the good subsidized or not?”

and:

"At it’s core, the point of US farm policy is to insure that producers can operate profitably while producing enough of a surplus in good or normal years to insure adequate supply in the worst years.

I would argue than some policies and subsidies are wasteful. I would never argue for letting US agriculture sink or swim on the whims of free market forces."

I’m thinking this is a great debate, but I’m also thinking that if the arable world was used efficiently, the debate would be moot regardless of government intervention.

Not even close. China, for example, produces over twice as much as the US, with less agricultural land area.

This thread has been a wealth of information. Thanks to you all for helping me get a handle on this. I’m going to try to summarize a little, and I’d appreciate it if anyone who spots something clearly wrong in my summary would correct it.

  1. Agricultural subsidies work differently from, say, gasoline subsidies, in many parts of the world.

  2. Instead of subsidizing the good to lower the price to the consumer, agricultural subsidies in the US subsidize the income of the grower, regardless of whether they’re price supports, direct payments, business instrument subsidies, export subsidies, or import tariffs.
    [ul]Some of these subsidies may lower consumer costs, or the price of American-produced commodities on the global market, but these effects are secondary to the goal of the subsidy.[/ul]
    [ul]Subsidies have a disproportionately low effect on the price of the commodity compared to the tax dollars spent.[/ul]

  3. The position that all agricultural subsidies are bad is not universal among economists, but most economists would likely agree there are some bad subsidies.
    How am I doing so far?

Kind of.

The difference is really only that gasoline consumers are largely private citizens and small business. So many subsidies to gasoline lower the price to the consumers and the consumers happen to be private citizens.

In contrast, very few private citizens buy sheep or sugar cane or cotton bolls. Private citizens buy mutton and cookies and clothes. So a subsidy to sheep or sugar cane or cottons bolls still lowers the price to the consumers, but the consumers are mostly other large businesses. By the time the agricultural product has passed through the manufacturing, wholesale and retail chain to private citizens, the effect of the tariff has been diluted to the point of being negligible.

You will note that I said *many *gasoline subsidies above. It depends a lot on how the subsidy is applied. A subsidy paid at the bowser in a well regulated and transparent market will result in a real price decrease to consumers. There are however plenty of examplesof subsidies paid at an indefinite point in the supply chain, and they tend to vanish just as rapidly as agricultural subsidies, with limited if any benefit to private citizens.

And once again we come back to the difference with agricultural subsidies. Most people can choose to use less gasoline if they wish. So a subsidy that lowers gasoline prices can lead to increased consumption rather rapidly. In contrast food is a commodity with fixed demand. A subsidy that lowers the price of food can’t actually increase food consumption. All it can do is take market share away from one food product and give it to another.

Yeah pretty much.

I would go even further and say that many, if not all, subsidies increase consumer costs as a means of achieving the goal of the subsidy, which is to buy the support of farmers and farm communities.

IANAEconomist, but I wouldn’t agree with that.

If we define “good” as “achieving the goal of the subsidy”, then all subsidies are good. They ensure political support, maintain local production, even out short term fluctuations etc. All economists agree that by that standard they are good.

If we define “good” as “resulting in a net economic benefit to the US taxpayer”, then I have never heard any economist suggest that any subsidies are good.

It all depends on perspective. Obviously these things are good for somebody, because they still exist. At least at a Federal level, these things get reviewed regularly. If they were universally considered bad then they would be scrapped in short order. However they may only be good for politicians and the people who support them.