Um, that doesn’t surprise me - for Africa. But, um, we were discussing Australia, where one would assume that high schools all issue, somewhat equivalent, high school diplomas. Are non IB schools giving out diplomas not accepted internationally? If a non IB high school graduate from Australia wants to go to a university in Canada/USA/Europe do they have to take a preliminary year, to catch up?
If Baccalaureate means nothing in the US, what’s a BA then? I mean, it must mean something if it’s on your university degree, right?
I just find it confusing, most everywhere (excepting third world countries!) a baccalaureate degree indicates post secondary education, not high school diploma.
A BA means something (Bachelor of Arts - a four year University Degree generally liberal arts). A BS means something (Bachelor of Science - mine is in Accounting, never figured out how accounting was a science, but that’s what they give.) An IB means something - a high school degree from a certified International Baccalaureat high school. They are three different phrases.
Thanks for the comments. I’m not delusional in thinking that he’s going to be going to an Ivy League school. And he is interested in going to college, he just doesn’t show it in his actions.
He would be very happy to just go to my alma mater, which he knows and is a good school. But I don’t think he’s put much thought into why he would want to go there, what he has interests in longer term, etc. As parents we want our kids to have more opportunities for themselves than we had. The kid’s smart enough, he just doesn’t apply himself. You guys have given me some food for thought.
Now WRT to elbows questions about IB. even sven hit on most of the points. The IB organization was originally started in the 60’s by a group of diplomats and expats parents that were in Europe, so that their kids could get a quality “college prepartory” education that would be recognized by US colleges and universities for admission purposes. It was extremely successful and they discovered that kids that went through the program were much more prepared and did much better in college even compared to kids that went to traditional US high schools, so they introduced the program into US schools. In the US certain public schools (some private) apply to the IB organization in Switzerland to become an IB diploma school. The teachers have to IB trained and the students have to take certain examinations at the end of their Junior and Senior years and score at certain levels to obtain an IB diploma. In my son’s case he will end up with a regular diploma from his public high school and an IB diploma.
The IB examinations are similar to AP examinations, in that depending upon your scores, you can obtain college credit at universities that recognive the IB diploma. In most cases, an IB graduate can receive around 30 hours of college credit, so they start college as a sophomore, as far as hours go. Many US universities also heavily recruit IB graduates and offer tuition breaks, scholarships, etc, because they have found that most IB students stay in school and get their degree, so having them as students improves their graduation rate statistics.
The IB group uses the name baccalaureate more to indicate it as a college prepartory program. If you are not interested in going to college, there’s no reason to be in the program. As said before the organization is based in Switzerland and has been around for about 40 years or so.
Thanks for clearing some of that up. I understand about international schools, but usually for countries with less than adequate school systems, it makes a lot of sense. I would not have thought Australia would be in that category though.
I’m still interested to know this though. Can an Australian kid with a high school diploma get into a western college or university?
Based on my experience working for a US college admissions office in the 1980’s, yes. We had people coming from all over the world and in most cases high school diplomas from other countries were recognized without a hitch (well, OK, sometimes we had to get the documentation translated).
This might, however, vary a little from school to school.
The college or university that a foreign national is applying to may have a high school diploma from a school that they have never heard of before. If so, they are going to have to research it, understand the schools credentials, make sure that it meets their standards, etc. before they accept a student from there. Universities arguably understand the high schools in their own jurisdiction much better than the ones from other countries. If US high school student wanted to go to university overseas, the foreign University would likely have to do a similar background check on that persons high school before granting admission.
This might be because he doesn’t know. He probably doesn’t know much about college, never having been to one. He’s probably talked with some friends who are just as clueless as he is about choosing a college.
Does he know what he wants to major in, or have a list of some possible majors? That was where I started in picking a college. I remember making a list of possible colleges, and listing which of the majors I was interested in that they each offered. Of course, this works better if you want to major in something that’s not offered at pretty much all colleges.
As for determining your long-term interests at 18, I suspect writing some stuff on a dart board and picking what to go into by throwing darts is about as effective as the usual method. His interests now at 18 may or may not be the same as his interests at 35.
My advice, if he doesn’t have his heart set on a major, is not to go for an “easy” major. People looking at his resume and interviewing him later in life will see that, and it won’t help him in getting a job. A major that is perceived to be more technical or difficult will help, even if it has nothing to do with the job he’s applying for.
Even if he does have his heart set on a major, he should have a second major, or at least a minor or some classes, in something practical. Business or computer science are good choices here. It’s harder than he thinks it is to get into a lot of the fields that people are interested in majoring in. I had my heart set on being an astronomer when I was 18, but that’s not what ended up happening. Having your heart set on being something isn’t sufficient to get it. I’m glad I also took a lot of computer science classes. Math or a science is even a good choice- it doesn’t have the practical applications that business or computer science do, but at least it makes you look smarter and not like a slacker.
I’d see about setting up a minimal-pressure visit to your alma mater, if possible, since it’s definitely on his list of possible colleges. See if they have something like Maryland’s Visit Maryland Day, where high school students could come and visit, sit in on a few classes, and get the tour, without a lot of pressure to decide anything right away. Let him get his feet wet and see what college visits are like. If your alma mater is not a possibility for this, see if the local state university has something like this. You might need to do some of the legwork for him on the first visit, because he probably doesn’t know what needs to be done for a college visit to happen.
Sure, and small liberal arts colleges in particular LOVE them - adds to their diversity and gives the American kids a bigger worldview just by having them on campus. Generally they’ll need to take the SAT or ACT (depends on the college, some take both, some only take one or the other) which is offered internationally.
Okay, so (Broomsticks 30 yr+ old experience notwithstanding), if an Aussie, with a standard high school diploma, can gain admission to a university in the US or Canada or Europe why would anyone bother with an IB school?
Is it just a ‘better’ school, prestige and cost wise?
Yes, they may get college credit for some of it, but I would guess that would be based on their SAT results mostly, wouldn’t it?
I knew kids with A levels and O levels who had to take a prelim year at Canadian university (yes, english was their first language!), so I’m curious. I thought the Aussie system was also A level/0 level.
Seems like I’m doing all the learning here. It’s very interesting anyway.
For the same reason an American student would enroll in an IB school…the curriculum in the IB program better prepares the student for the rigors of college study. Studies have been shown that IB students have higher graduation rates, higher grades, etc in their college experience than students from traditional schools. It’s not about getting into the college of your choice, but alse being successful there.
I think the disconnect here has to do with how flexible the American university admissions process can be. American schools rarely have hard and fast cut offs, and there isn’t anything near a single formula for who gets in and who doesn’t. There is no SAT score, no prep school, and not even any combination of factors that can promise you will get into a good school. It’s hard to assign a specific value to any one aspect of an application.
US admissions is based on building a vibrant university environment. They look for diversity, people with interesting life stories, people with unique talents, people who can speak about different viewpoints and people who present a compelling “big picture.” Admissions staff are crafting a cohort, and your admissions decision depends on if you fill something that is needed in that cohort- which may not be based objectively on how “good” you are academically. In fact, often people with a record of being well rounded and high-achieving are rejected because they basically add nothing new to the mix.
So you can’t really say what the exact value of an IB is. It reflects a willingness to commit to a standardized program that is usually a lot tougher than the standard US high school. That’s generally a good thing, but it’s hard to say if that’s better than having a good rags-to-riches story or being a champion kazoo player. It’s just one piece of a big picture, and it’s value really just depends on what the school you are applying to is looking for, what your competition is like, etc. I doubt it’s ever a bad thing, though. It is a pretty well regarded program.
When the IB program was established in the 1960s, I imagine things were a bit different. At that time, a lot few people went to college, and there were a limited number of prep schools that fed into the top programs. It was a smaller circle. The IB program was probably designed as a way for diplomats to make up for not having access to the elite American institutions. The US, being as inward focused as it is, may well have not held even top European schools in the same regard as the systems that cultivated the American elites.
Over time, universities opened up and the IB program evolved. It’s started to serve a wider range of international students, and found a place in the US as well. Now it is a sort of a franchise, but carries with it the idea that a student has met a certain set of standards that every school recognizes. It’s not a hugely coherent thing- few things in US education are.
True. However, doing such a check really isn’t that onerous. I expect it would be even easier these days than it was back when I was working in an admissions office.
Do you honestly think the typical US college is somehow “familiar” with every high school in the US?
No but they have lists of ones that meet their criteria. If the school isn’t on the list, they have to check it out. As I said, the typical US college is going to be more familiar with more high schools in the US, than they will be with high schools in Australia.
The school has credentials from a recognized international educational organization. IB’s are recognized as a certain level of quality pretty much everywhere, so (yes, 30 years ago) if someone had walked in the door of the school I worked for with one in hand their high school diploma would be accepted as readily as, say, one from the high school down the street. If a foreign student didn’t have one said student might be asked to provide some other credential to show the diploma was worth something (for most of Europe, showing their high school was part of the national educational system was enough, some obscure third country they might have to take some tests to prove competency)
In the case of some folks who came to the US as refugees and couldn’t produce documentation on their high school years we recommended they take the GED test whether they decided to go to our school or some other one they might have applied to.
You can gain admission to some colleges with a GED (Graduate Equivalency Diploma - i.e. having dropped out of high school, you take a test). But some colleges are highly competitive and not all U.S. High Schools are the same quality.
A SAT result doesn’t just happen, if the school you went to was crap - you probably have a less than wonderful SAT score even if you are fairly bright. But many (not all) Americans have choice in where to send their kids. Between the local public school, charter schools, magnet schools and private schools. IB accreditation is one way that allows parents and students to gauge the quality of the choice.
Keep in mind, the US doesn’t have the kind of national test system most countries have. Some states have pass/fail test you need to graduate, but these test for a bare minimum and are not useful for ranking students. The SATs are more of an IQ test than a knowledge test, and are meant to assess capacity rather what someone has actually learned in school. There are SAT subject tests and AP tests, but these are used to demonstrate mastery over a specific subject, not so much to measure of how you have done academicly in high school.
All we really have to measure someone’s high school performance is their GPA. Schools have to be accreditted by their state, but again, that is a “does this school meet the bare minimum” thing.
So a diploma that meets a widely recognized standard can mean more than a regular diploma in a way it wouldn’t in a country with tests.
No, an IB is a HS diploma, a standardised, internationally accepted program. That’s all. It has a stellar reputation and some universities give some level of credits for having gotten one, but it’s just a standardised HS degree.
Not all HS diplomas are created equally worldwide. Some universities won’t accept some HS or equivalent diplomas from some countries.
A BA is a Bachelor of Arts degree (that’s what my diploma says, anyhow.)
You may find it confusing that they use the word baccalaureate, but they do. It’s not that big a deal, it’s just a standardised HS degree. I was only speaking for Australia because I considered putting my American son (I’m an expat) into an American school as at one stage there was a possibility he’d be going back and forth between schools. Some private schools here offer them as well, presumably so that their graduates can think about university in other countries.
A quick wiki says that some other than third world countries use the term baccalaureate for a secondary school or HS diploma, such as France, Wales, Romania, and the UK. That same wiki says that it’s a university degree in the US, Canada and Belgium. So I’d say it’s scattered pretty equally.
Omar, could you answer this question from earlier? I think it really makes a difference. If your son is a B/C student who is fairly involved without any interference from you, it’s really different than if he is ONLY a B/C student who is fairly involved because his parents are constantly keeping the pressure on, and who would probably naturally be a C/F student who didn’t participate at all.
ETA: It’s worth noting that the IB program is still pretty small here in the U.S, though growing rapidly. It’s sort of a competitor with the AP program as a way to allow excellent students to excel in a standardized way.
I mean, if you want to be a hardass, you could tell him that until he starts getting in the homework on time, you’ll request the school pull him from his AP classes. Despite the high test score(s). AP courses are supposed to be just like college courses. You can’t slide by in college without turning in assignments, even if you do well on tests. The professors aren’t going to cut him any breaks. So if he wants to take “grown up” classes, he needs to act like a grown up. Or not. Tell him no one is forcing him to take AP classes or be in the IB program, so if he doesn’t like the rigors, he can drop down a level.
That might be enough to motivate him.
Or you can let him do exactly what he’s doing and let him own up to the consequences when they come to pass. When he can’t get into the colleges he wants to go to or if he takes his “strategies” to college and starts flunking out, he’ll learn.