On the good news side, I believe the age of emancipation is generally 17, so they in-laws hae less than a year that they have to deal with this! 
It seems to me that they’re saddling his friends’ parents with their discipline issues if they *don’t * tell the other parents to send him home.
My daughter’s friends have shown up at my door, and I invariably call the parents to tell them that they’re safe, and ask if they’d like me to get him or her home. Now, I don’t mind giving these kids a place to cool off, but I DO mind giving their parents yet another night to avoid the problem.
My response would, if I were honest, have to be, “Oh, well, it is the choice I did make and so did my husband and look what freaking boring respectable pillars of society we turned out to be”. On both counts.
I guess I’ll have to work on my phrasing.
Little time, so sorry I can’t say much at the moment…thanks, all, though…
Just for the curious, an article I dug up while waiting for short incubations. PDF, so warning, yadda yadda:
No, that’s not what I meant. Skipping school is bad for the future, and that can be explained. Doing drugs is bad, and that can be explained. Going to bed early so you aren’t tired next morning is good for your health, and can be explained.
And here I thought all the time that parents loved their children, and that it’s helpful to tell your children that you will love them regardless of what they do. Apparently my earlier notion was more correct, that most parents don’t love the kids, and when they say stuff, it’s just pretense.
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Parents nowadays seem more concerned with being “cool” than with being good parents, and I find that kind of sad.
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I wasn’t referring to being “cool” - in fact I detest this whole “coolness” attitude, I think it’s stupid. But I don’t see the reason to play boss. As adult, I’m no God, only a human. Most of the times, I will have experience and knowledge (and hopefully, some wisdom, too) on my side, but I’m still not infallible, and I don’t understand why I should pretend, or insist on absolute respect. Yes, it’s wrong to call people insults - but not because the parents provide room and board, but because it’s wrong to insult anybody. I do have to wonder - if it’s such a personal burden for the parents to provide room and board for their own children, why have them at all? Why not ship them off to the next orhphanage? It’s not as if the children asked to be born to these parents, or came and squatted in the house. (I’ve always hated this argument “As long as you put your feet under my table…” I thought it had long died out.) Either kids behave correctly to everybody, including parents, or things are already gone wrong. But why do parents get special consideration, and why are they so infallible that kids aren’t allowed to talk back = have their own opinion? Kids aren’t clones into which parents can download their own opinions and their unfulfilled dreams, and then press start; they are individuals on loan from the future.
Well, fine, but what happens after they don’t agree with or even listen to the explanation? You’re a rational being; they’re still in the process of learning how to be one. Stability and authority, in addition to facts and reasoning, are what they respond to.
I’m not sure who you mean. There are no hits on Amazon for Robert Dreikurs, nor for A.S. Neill, who was the founder of Summerhill school - the controversial democratic school in England. Is there another Summerhill?
I think the Summerhill philosophy of representational democracy works with some children, and not others. I think it works best when used from day one, not when applied suddenly to a rebellious teen.
I absolutely agree with you. What I see here (third hand and from a messageboard), is that most likely that “right foundation” was not laid. When a foundation isn’t laid, the house will begin to collapse. You can run around putting patches on the walls, you can throw your hands in the air and let it collapse, or you can enlist the aid of a few jacks, prop the thing up and stick a foundation under it. Obviously, this last clumsy analogy (jacks=professional help, foundation=working family dynamics) is what I and the other posters are suggesting might be the only effective way to save the family at this point. Because - and this is the important part - THE KID IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! There is no way anyone can force him to do what he doesn’t want to do. Bingo! He’s figured it out! No one has authority over him except for him! Every single choice in his life is his to make, not his parents’.
“Love and Logic” parenting is not at all an authoritative paradigm. It’s exactly and entirely about letting children make their own choices, and loving them when they succeed and when they fail, as they unfailingly will sometimes. It’s about not bailing them out or enabling them, but empowering them to make their own decisions and solve their own problems. Unfortunately, in this case, you do sorta need to go back to treating the kid like a 2 year old to do it, because he’s acting like a 2 year old - defiant, impulsive and out of (his own, not his parents’) control. Again, I haven’t read the teen book, which I’m sure discusses how to transition to being a Love and Logic parent when you weren’t in the past. I’ve read his first book, covering how to transition with a younger child, and it was excellent.
I suspect we’re not all that far off in our parenting philosophies, constanze, just in our ways of expressing ourselves.
(And the more I read of the Summerhill website, the more they sound like they and Jim Fay are talking about exactly the same things. Our recomendations are not opposing, but supporting one another.)
I am not a parent, but I’m reading this thread with interest since I have a couple of spoiled nieces who will probably make their parents’ lives a living hell in a couple of years.
Maybe they could think of this in more adult terms, rather than in terms of disciplining a child. People don’t act any way except the way that gets them what they want - what does this 16 year old want? What is his motivation to act the way he’s acting? Does he simply want more autonomy (and at 16, I don’t blame him)? I imagine that he has this idea in his head that being an adult means doing as you please, and not having to do anything you don’t want to (let’s all pause for a giant guffaw at this idea).
I’m getting a vague picture of what’s motivating him, based on what you’ve posted, loopydude, but it’s not coming into focus. Oh yeah - I know what he’s reminding me of - Judd Nelson’s character in “The Breakfast Club,” when he keeps mouthing off and getting more detentions. What is your nephew getting out of the way he’s acting? His parents are upset and at their wit’s end with him - why would he want that? Have they tried sitting him down and simply asking him what he wants?
I haven’t a clue. Honestly, when my siblings-in-law started filling us in on some of this stuff, we were baffled. Never saw it coming. I really thought he was a good kid. I used to even goof off with him and his friends texting, but that ended a while ago rather abrubtly. I figured, well he’s too old and cool for this. Physically, the way he’s changed has been astonishing. Last Christmas he was about my height, which was amazing to us even then, and by this summer when I saw him last he was towering over me, seemed like four or five inches. He must have grown well over a foot in a year. His voice totally changed, his body filled out a bit from his earlier rail-thin physique (but not anything strange that would make us suspect he was taking steroids or something, though I suppose that’s possible). He went from this young teen squirt to this man-sized force to be reckoned with in about twelve months, and I barely feel like I know him now. I really wondered for a while if a kid can grow too rapidly and the stresses somehow screw with his brain. Probably too facile an explanation, though.
Again, I haven’t a clue. I can’t imagine at this point they haven’t tried to talk to him, but I really don’t know much about the content of those conversations.
I think she means Rudolf Dreikurs.
Thanks! If his wiki page is accurate, I like him a lot. Particularly this part:
He has some interesting theories and good classroom management techniques. And, yes, it’s a whole lot like Love and Logic. (Or maybe I should say Love and Logic is a whole lot like his work, as it predates it.)
He is taking them for granted and running totally out of control. They need to stop both of these things from happening. They need to take the power back. I cannot emphasize this enough. They need to take some drastic action. This kid needs a serious wake-up call.
First, I would recommend that they install an alarm system. It would alert them to his comings and goings. This will be especially helpful at night. It will also help them to enforce grounding him. Of course he’ll probably have to have a code, but at the least they’ll be able to hear the alarm and question him when he gets in, sniff his breath, check his pockets. And they could be really strict and not give him the code, especially if a parent is home all day.
Second, take away all privileges. No TV, no car, no bike, no allowance, no cell phone, no curtains on the windows, no driver’s license. Get him a phone card to make calls which will allow them to keep track of who he is calling. Make it abundantly clear that he has forced them to do this. Let him know what he needs to do in order to get these things back, and be specific. Search his room, and his car if he has one. Check everywhere, one of my favorite hiding places for drugs was the backup battery space for my alarm clock and stereo and on the crossbeam under our patio. What they find might give him a clue about what he’s up to. Make him realize that his privileges include even the most basic things he takes for granted, such as meals and laundry and even the basic respect he gets as a human being. If he won’t act like a human being, then they don’t have to treat him with even that much respect. Call the parents of his friends and let them know that he is on house arrest and if he comes to their house to call them immediately. They may even want to tell these parents something about his behavior and hint around about him being a bad influence on their kids.
Third, be loud and clear about how he has to be out of the house the day he turns 18. Make it his birthday present. Too bad that they will be unable to accommodate him any further, pay his rent, pay for college, etc. 18 and OUT. It won’t kill him, and he’d better start making a plan. He doesn’t treat them like a family, so they don’t have to treat him as such, right? Maybe if he did, they would change their minds, but with the way he’s acting now…?
Fourth, they may want to take him in for a psychiatric evaluation. While he’s there, have the psychiatrist describe what life is like in the psych ward. That was a huge wakeup call for me when I was 15. I realized I did not want to go down that road.
Yeah, I’m harsh. I know. But they have created this situation as much as he has. It is only logical that they have to do some serious work to undo it.
Sorry I don’t really have anything to offer. I imagine I would require counselling - but if he “refused” to attend, I’m not sure what else there is to do. Another possibility would be some structured private school, but I don’t know how realistic that is. He certainly would be on his own as far as everything beyond food, shelter, and essential school expenses. And I would call the cops about any suspected illegal activity - including curfew violation. (Normally I wouldn’t say that, but most kids are able to do a little underage drinking/drugs, and push boundaries in other ways that you can handle as a family, without completely rejecting all parental authority.)
I think I would seriously consider having him move out as soon as legal - with a standing offer that he could move back in as soon as he was willing to respect the household rules - which might include civility, doing your share, attending school and family functions, working, etc.
Several years back I was doing yardwork in front of my home. Across the street a teenage girl was walking along, followed by an older woman - apparently her mom. The mom started off saying “I forbid you to go” and the kid essentially responded “you can’t stop me.” As they proceeded down the block, the mom changed into threatening, then begging and pleading, with no response from her kid. Still strikes me as one of the most depressing public displays I’ve ever seen - a parent who had completely lost control/influence over their kid.
Yes, you love your kid (essentially) no matter what they do - but you don’t always like them that much. And oftentimes the way a parent best expresses their love is by setting and enforcing rules.
I guarantee all of you who don’t have kids, your views on many things change once you are “on the job.” Not saying you will come out with any specific view or decision or another - just saying thinking about parenting is a very different beast from actually doing it 24/7. I remember my older sisters laughing at me when I was single and childless and would say things like “Why do you allow your kid to do XYZ” - words I would remember when faced with the same situation myself.
When I was a high school teacher, I knew a girl like this kid. She admitted (to me) that she knew her parents couldn’t do anything to make her behave, so she did as she pleased. She was actually a pretty pleasant person to be around as long as you weren’t trying to force her to do anything (like not leave class in the middle of the period). Her parents eventually sent her off to boarding school in the northeast (I think they were rich), and she actually loved it. It turned her life around, and not having to spend time with her parents made her appreciate them more. I’m not necessarily recommending this course of action (for one thing, it’s really expensive), but it worked for one person I knew.
Loving someone doesn’t mean you let them get away with murder, or treat you like crap. My daughter knows that I love her, and that I love her no matter what. That doesn’t mean that I don’t expect her to behave appropriately, or that there won’t be consequences for behaving inappropriately.
Because as a parent, you ARE the boss. I don’t think I can really make this any clearer. Kids **need ** someone to be in charge. They are, by definition, not qualified to manage their own lives. This obviously becomes less the case as they get older, but as long as they’re still minors, as a parent it’s YOUR JOB to keep them safe and healthy.
I should insist on what, *occasional * respect, as she sees fit? Are you unclear on the definition of “respect”? It’s not the same as the definition of “slavish obedience.”
Are you seriously using the “I didn’t ask to be born!!11!!” argument? Is it a “burden” to care for my child? Of course not. I signed up for this. However, I do a damned good job of it, and for that I’m not owed a little gratitude, and yes, respect.
I’m entitled to special consideration, not because I’m infallible, but because I’m her MOTHER. Only someone with no children could possibly think that carrying someone in your body for nine months, pushing them out of your body through great pain, and clothing, feeding, housing, teaching and loving them to the very best of your ability for the next 20 or so years DOESN’T entitle that person to some special consideration.
I’ve seen the light. I think I’ll email this to at least a dozen people. I suspect something bad may happen if I don’t.
teenagers. we all need a good smack if you ask me.
if that doesn’t appeal to you, you could always try emotional blackmail. on the very few occasions i talked back to my mother she would burst into tears and stop eating (she is anorexic). cruel maybe, but it works.
I’ve seen a lot of this type of situation in the past thirty or forty years. Parents who try so hard to be “respectful” of their children that they become doormats for spoiled brats. By the time the kid is sixteen, the damage done is often too deep to be repaired. So I don’t have much advice for the in-laws who have fucked up so abysmally in their abominable experiment at being parents. It’s a damn shame they didn’t realize they were responsible for the development of an actual human being who would one day become an adult when they decided to breed, or they might have taken that responsibility more seriously and not allowed their precious little larva to go so twistedly wrong.
First, I’m a father of two. Both are now grown adults, in their twenties. Both decent, intelligent, independent-minded, competent, capable, people who are making their own lives. They are also loving, respectful, thoughtful children, who have made my wife and me proud by saying, sincerely, that they consider us their best friends, and that they’re grateful for the way we raised them and all that we’ve done for them. So much for qualifications on the subject of parenthood.
I honestly don’t know what to say to the OP regarding the in-laws and their monster. It’s probably too late to fix the mess. They should have started many, many years ago, if they expected to raise a manageable teenager, and eventually a civilized adult. But if a sixteen-year-old child of mine ever “refused” to get in the car and go where I told him to go, he’d have been put into the car, bodily, with as little violence as necessary, but without any possibility of refusal, period. To the children who have responded to the effect that “parents who love their children would never ever punish them or make them do something they didn’t want to do”, I’m very sorry for you, and I truly hope to Christ you never have a child until you grow up and learn what being a parent means. It is because I love my children that I did not allow them to grow up to be disrespectful, insolent, spoiled, socially inept, uncivilized, self-centered assholes. I had too much respect - and love - for them to permit them to turn out that way.
From earliest childhood, when they were capable of understanding, my children were made to understand that their parents were in charge. A family is NOT a democracy. Our children were permitted, and in fact encouraged, to question what they did not understand, including instructions we gave them. We never resorted to the lame “because I said so” as an explanation; when they asked a question, we answered it. But once an explanation had been given, they were not free to make their own decisions about mealtimes, bedtimes, whether to go to school, or whether to obey. Children are not capable of running their own lives, and a parent who caves in and lets them do so is a failure and a disgrace.
But if they’re not trained from the beginning that the parents are in charge, and will have the final say, then by the time they’re teenagers, they’ll be a handful I wouldn’t wish on anyone. As I said, my children are now adults, and are fine people. When they were children, we had to spank them very seldom; they were intelligent and learned fast. When they were teenagers, discipline usually took another form: confined to their room during all hours they were not in school (which meant being deprived of the privilege of family mealtimes, among other things), without stereo or television or telephone or any other form of distraction or entertainment, except for one: all the books they wanted. When my son was caught smoking with his friends on a street corner at age fifteen, he was spanked (the last time I had to resort to that) and then confined to his room for a month. He never smoked again. (Incidentally, at that time he was two inches taller than I am, and outweighed me by at least thirty pounds. I spanked him anyway. I cried about it that night, alone with my wife, because I knew how much it hurt him emotionally. Physically, my spanking him didn’t amount to anything; he barely felt it. But he felt my disapproval, and disappointment, and anger with him. And that hurt him, and therefore hurt me.)
We now have a friend whose younger son is just a few years older than our son. He has a little girl, just turned nine. He and his wife refuse to consider giving orders to their dear precious baby, or disciplining her in any way. If she wants to eat nothing but chocolate for dinner, they give her all the chocolate she wants, and she doesn’t have to eat the meal that was prepared for her. (This is a literal example, which I witnessed firsthand.) If she wants to stay up all night, they let her (and fall asleep themselves while she watches whatever she can find on television). Strangely, they’re beginning to hear that she’s becoming a problem in school. She won’t obey the teacher. She bullies other kids. She demands whatever she wants and expects to get it. She is a tyrant, entirely self-absorbed, and believes that the universe revolves around her and her demands. Go figure.
An adult who behaves like that is considered a psychopath. Yet a large number of so-called parents today seem to think that they should raise their children that way. I’m sure that some of the children on this message board would consider this to be a fine example of “loving parenting” and would applaud these people for not being big ol’ meanies to their kids, but “respecting” their wishes. But of course, all that’s really happening is that they’re raising a spoiled, self-centered egomaniac, who will have no respect for anyone else, and who will reach adulthood expecting everybody in the world to cater to her whims.
If you’re a new parent, or considering becoming a parent, please, I implore you: Love your children enough to smack ‘em in the ass when they need it. Don’t abdicate your responsibility and hide behind the cowardly excuse of “respecting” the little darlings’ wishes, while you allow them to grow into disrespectful, uncivilized boors. Or you’ll end up where the OP’s in-laws are: scared, confused, abused servants in your own home, meek and quivering subjects of your own tyrannical offspring. You’ll also be unleashing the snarly bastards on the rest of society. And we don’t need any more of them; there are more than enough stomping around in public already.
No, I was thinking of A.S. Neill in Summerhill, England. I have his book, as well as the Dreikurs book, as older editions, so I don’t know how easily available they are in the US. But if Amazon doesn’t have them, the local library should.
But Neill worked with very rebellious teenagers! He originally didn’t want to accept children over the age of 7, because he thought it would be too difficult, but for fiancial reasons (a lot of messed-up kids had rich parents), he accepted kids up to 14 years, with severe behaviour problems! And his method worked.