How do you think I should have felt about this?

[you_with_the_face]

@MaxTheVool

Again, you’re making it absolute. Is one single interaction going to completely alter my behavior? Presumably not. But people respond to stimulus. That’s how we work. If there’s a thing that I do, and when I do it something unpleasant happens, then that tweaks the knobs and dials in my brain.

But you’re still saying this exchange could tweak this guy’s brain so severely that he’ll become a less helpful person…all because of one trivially blunt comment. I just think this possibility is too remote to lay at Ambivalid’s feet, honestly.

[you_with_the_face]

@k9bfriender

An example: Last night, I had a couple friends over. One of them said something about it being a bit cold. I asked her if she wanted me to turn up the temperature, she said no. Being mindful of this conversation, I said, “Ok.”

She gave it a few awkward moments before she said, “Actually, if you wouldn’t mind turning it up just a bit?” She actually did want me to offer again, and it put her in an awkward position having to ask for what she had just declined.

She might’ve wanted you to offer again…or she might’ve realized, after a little more thought, that turning up the thermostat made sense. I don’t think you can assume one way or the other. The fact that she eventually did speak up shows that when people really want to an accept an offer, they have the ability to make that known without it being pushed out of them.

As I pointed out earlier, though, a “you sure?” is an effective way of clarifying a refusal that might not be genuine.

I’d be a bit upset. I don’t think that I would take it out on other people, but there’s a decent chance that I would complain to friends or even on a message board about a scathing response I got to an attempt to help. If I did not understand the context, I would be a bit confused and frustrated, and it would lessen my chances of putting myself out there the next time I perceive that my assistance could help someone.

Just want to be sure I understand you here. If the exact situation played out as in the OP (you offer to open the door for a guy in a wheelchair, he declines your offer by explaining that it actually makes things harder for him, and you decide you’re going to help him anyway), you’d still complain to others about how the wheelchair guy responded to you? Would you complain about it even if you had the introspective ability to look back at the events that transpired and see how you might’ve caused offense? Or would you be so hurt and confused that you would be incapable of doing that?

How about if Door Man posted to this message board about the exchange and his account of what happen was exactly the same as Ambivalid’s except the story was told from his perspective. I’m curious what your response to him would be. If he said this encounter has poisoned him from helping any other disabled person, what would you tell him?

I’m asking these questions because I suspect you will agree with me that if in fact the Door Man’s account mirrors Ambivalid’s, it would hard to sympathize with his position. I mean, you would see that he probably had good intentions because he’d share that viewpoint, but you’d also be thinking “dude, what did you expect would happened since he explicitly asked you not to help?”

[wonky]

@you_with_the_face

She might’ve wanted you to offer again…or she might’ve realized, after a little more thought, that turning up the thermostat made sense.

Indeed. I don’t do the little “No, well, if you INSIST” games, but there are times when I discover after turning something down that I’ve changed my mind. And then I say, “Hey, is that offer still open?” or some similar question and away we go.

[Broomstick]

@kambuckta

How did you get ^^ that, from this:

Here’s hoping I don’t make a total hash of all the quotes…

We started with:

@Ambivalid

Anyway, I jumped in the drivers seat of my car, folded my chair up and opened the suicide door, preparing to pull the chair into the back. Well as I was concentrating on what I was doing, my eyes were focused on my chair and I didn’t see one of the guys in the junker car get out and approach my car. He didn’t say a word as he came up to me.

I didn’t know he was there until he leaned into my car and grabbed my chair which was already 3/4 of the way inside, proclaiming, “I gotcha man!” All I knew was that suddenly, someone was inside my car and putting their hands on my chair. It alarmed me to a great degree. “Get the fuck away!” “Get your hands off!” was my immediate response, as I pulled the chair fully into the back seat and away from his clutches. His reply was unforgettable…

“Man, fuck you! I’ll kick your fucking ass!” “I was just trying to help!” :eek::eek:
In my state of shock and anger I just told him, “You don’t just put your hands on other people’s shit like that! You were in my fucking car!” I was admittedly fucking mad.

@Brawndo_with_Electrolytes

He fucked up in sneaking up on you, and you missed another teaching opportunity for another idiot who fucked up. On the one hand, I can’t fault your response, because you were invaded. But why so alarmed? Because of your inescapable helplessness that you work so hard to shed?!

@Broomstick

Frankly, what the guy at the gas station did was borderline assault in my view - sneaking up on someone/touching their stuff/being in their car is threatening. The party in the car can’t know the other person’s intentions, whether this is someone “helping” or a prelude to a robbery/carjacking. Because “helping” IS one of the ways bad guys get close enough to a person to mug them or otherwise harm them. The fact that Able Bodied Guy at the Gas Station though it was okay to violate someone else’s personal space like that just because he was disabled, and that you seem to think it’s OK, too, just shows that both of you do NOT view someone with a disability like everyone else. The fact ABGatGS reacted so negatively shows that he was NOT doing it solely out of the goodness of his heart but more likely to look good in front of his buddies. He was using Ambivalid to score social points.

@kambuckta

How did you get ^^ that, from this:

So… to sum up:

[ul]
[li]This Guy at the Gas Station (GatGS) walks up unannounced to Amibvalid’s car, reaches inside, and grabs Ambivalid’s wheelchair.[/li][li]Ambivalid doesn’t know this guy and has no way of ascertaining his motivations here - is this helping, or trying to rob him?[/li][li]Ambivalid reacts with hostility to a potentially dangerous situation[/li][li]GatGS likewise reacts with hostility, but backs off[/li][li]Brawndo with Electrolytes then says Amivalid missed a “teachable moment” (bwuh?) and wanted to know why he was so hostile to GatGS.[/li][/ul]

A wheelchair is more than a pair of socks - it’s how some folks get around. Some folks consider their wheelchair an extension of their body and touching it without permission is a lot like grabbing your arm without permission. It’s not a friendly action (regardless of intent). Taking it away from someone can seriously impair this mobility. It’s a big deal.

So yeah, when someone reaches in, unannounced, to a person’s car and lays hands on their wheelchair it’s a big deal. Sad to say, but folks with disabilities get robbed, too, and some bad guys like to target them due to perceptions of them being weak and/or defenseless.

So, really, Brawndo with Electrolytes, WTF? You don’t get that grabbing someone’s wheelchair is alarming to said wheelchair owner? YOU wouldn’t be alarmed at some total stranger sneaking up to you and getting partway into your car? Is that really a “teachable” moment? Or is that a moment to prioritize personal safety and worry about one’s own self?

**kambuckta, **does anything else need clarification for you?

[k9bfriender]

@you_with_the_face

She might’ve wanted you to offer again…or she might’ve realized, after a little more thought, that turning up the thermostat made sense. I don’t think you can assume one way or the other. The fact that she eventually did speak up shows that when people really want to an accept an offer, they have the ability to make that known without it being pushed out of them.

I can assume, I think. After I said, “Ok.” she kind of looked at me expectantly, as if expecting something from me. It was less than 10 seconds from my acceptance of her refusal of my offer to when she asked again.

I can ask her again when I see her tonight to be sure.

As I pointed out earlier, though, a “you sure?” is an effective way of clarifying a refusal that might not be genuine.

I agree, but there are those who see that as pestering.

Just want to be sure I understand you here. If the exact situation played out as in the OP (you offer to open the door for a guy in a wheelchair, he declines your offer by explaining that it actually makes things harder for him, and you decide you’re going to help him anyway), you’d still complain to others about how the wheelchair guy responded to you?

With what I know now, no. With what I knew last week, maybe. I don’t know exactly what this guy’s perceptions were, but from Ambivalid’s description, I can see many interpretations of his actions that would induce me to think that the denial was not sincere. I would be wrong, obviously, but that doesn’t mean that those would not be perceptions that would be perceived.

He could simply not want anyone else to put themselves out for them. He could be having a bad day, and just doesn’t want to interact with anyone. He could have been angry that the last time he was coming to this door, no one helped, and is now angry about the door in general, and anything associated with it.

Door guy may not have heard or understood the words. We sometimes assume that people hear us as well as we hear ourselves, forgetting that we are outside, with many things that absorb, obscure, and drown out speech.

What would not have crossed my mind, until this thread, is that opening the door for him would be harmful.

Would you complain about it even if you had the introspective ability to look back at the events that transpired and see how you might’ve caused offense?

Well, of course not, but that’s the thing, Door guy doesn’t have that. HE may not even have all the information that we have.

Or would you be so hurt and confused that you would be incapable of doing that?

I would not be hurt, but I may be confused. I may not have enough information from the event to understand what it was that I did wrong.

How about if Door Man posted to this message board about the exchange and his account of what happen was exactly the same as Ambivalid’s except the story was told from his perspective. I’m curious what your response to him would be. If he said this encounter has poisoned him from helping any other disabled person, what would you tell him?

A post like this?:

"The other day, as I am getting ready to get into my car, I see someone in a wheelchair heading to the door of my building. I ask if he needs help, and I don’t really understand what he shouts in response, something about making it easier. He’s very animated, waving his arms and shaking his head. At this point, I am a bit confused as to what to do next. I don’t want to leave this person, who seems to be a bit in distress and agitated, as I am worried about him as a person. At the same time, I do feel as though my presence is not desired, that he wants to be alone.

I’m just going to do what I can to help make sure that he gets in the building safely, so I run up and open the door for him.

As he passes through the door, he drops some scathing commentary at me, telling me that I did it with the intent of harming and belittling him.

I don’t think that it is really worth putting yourself out there to help other people, anymore.

What do you all think?"

Prior to this thread, I would have said that he did the right thing, and that he shouldn’t judge based on the reactions of one person.

After reading this thread, I would tell him that he probably misperceived the situation, and that his desire to help is to be commended, but that he should be better at understanding what help is actually desired before forcing it upon others.

I’m asking these questions because I suspect you will agree with me that if in fact the Door Man’s account mirrors Ambivalid’s, it would hard to sympathize with his position. I mean, you would see that he probably had good intentions because he’d share that viewpoint, but you’d also be thinking “dude, what did you expect would happened since he explicitly asked you not to help?”

Perspective is an odd thing. I’ve had employee conflicts, where both of them tell me the exact same story, but that the conflict was the other person’s fault.

[Ambivalid]

And I hesitated to mention this before but the guy who grabbed my chair was a seedy, shady looking guy. Honestly, he looked like a meth head (and I know what meth addicts look like). Not some upstanding member of society. All of those guys in that junker car looked, um, crazy. So his appearance, when I was suddenly aware of him all up close and personal, added to my initial alarm (greasy, poorly dressed, unshaven, gaunt, skinny, etc.).

[monstro]

@k9bfriender

The only thing I said is that those 5 words seem to make a huge difference.

“No thanks, I’m good” works for 99.5% of people, which is probably why I have only encountered one Cookie Monster Fairy in my life. I have tried every variation on the theme of “You’re so sweet, but no thank you. I’m not hungry/I just had a ton of sugar/I’m good” and these words haven’t kept her away. So of course I’ve tried those “5 words”. Those words just haven’t worked with this particular chick. Just like Ambivalid’s words didn’t work with door-holder.

[Ambivalid]

@k9bfriender

"The other day, as I am getting ready to get into my car, I see someone in a wheelchair heading to the door of my building. I ask if he needs help, and I don’t really understand what he shouts in response, something about making it easier. He’s very animated, waving his arms and shaking his head. At this point, I am a bit confused as to what to do next. I don’t want to leave this person, who seems to be a bit in distress and agitated, as I am worried about him as a person. At the same time, I do feel as though my presence is not desired, that he wants to be alone.

These are the problems I would have with such a post:

There was no confusion. He responded to me with clear understanding of what i was communicating to him. “Well I’m going to get it for you anyway”. “Anyway” meaning despite me telling him that I didn’t want it, need it, or consider it helpful. His body language, tone of voice, facial expressions, all the unspoken things, as well as his words communicated clear understanding of and dismissal of my words. He began the interaction by shouting at me and I had no difficulty understanding him clearly. Why would he have any difficulty understanding my response back in an equally able to be heard voice? He had a smirk/amused smile on his face when I was talking to him at the door. Now, I can’t know for sure what was making him make that face, maybe it was a defensive reaction to being dressed down for his actions. But it fit within the context of not listening or caring about my perspective.

Bottom line, he heard me say, “No thank you.” He saw me shake my head in tandem with this reply. He saw me also wave my hands in a “no” gesture also in tandem with my reply and my head shaking (it wasn’t some wild-eyed arm waving, I may have done a poor job initially describing my action. It was more a “criss-crossing” hand movement than a full arm wave). I was not in distress, I was not agitated, not by any normal metric of what those states are considered to be. I was calm just assertive. Perhaps there doesn’t exist a way in which I can be seen as assertive, and such a state gets perpetually seen as agitated and/or in distress.

[Ambivalid]

I do take to heart some of the suggestions made regarding how I could have used softer language to make the same point more palatable and perhaps likely to be internalized by this man. I do recognize that my emotions were high, even though I was in control for the most part.

[you_with_the_face]

@k9bfriender

I agree, but there are those who see that as pestering.

Culturally, most of us are so used to this that only a minority would consider one solitary “are you sure?” to be pestering.

At any rate, that is still a different creature than doing what that guy did. Which was make an offer and then completely override the response given. Door Man didn’t even attempt to clarify the sincerity of the refusal; he plowed ahead and did what he intended to do in the first place. So these situations aren’t analogous.

With what I know now, no. With what I knew last week, maybe. I don’t know exactly what this guy’s perceptions were, but from Ambivalid’s description, I can see many interpretations of his actions that would induce me to think that the denial was not sincere. I would be wrong, obviously, but that doesn’t mean that those would not be perceptions that would be perceived.

Right, but if Door Man was to recount the exchange just as Ambivalid did, really the only logical response would be to say “well, you shouldn’t have assumed his refusal was insincere. You guessed wrong and as a result, you got snapped at; live and learn. The appropriate action would’ve been either take him at his word or double check before you disregarded him.”

Multiple posters have said rape and unwanted touching have no relevance in this discussion, but to me the ground rules are the same. Before acting in a way that goes against the words coming out of someone’s mouth, it is incumbent on you to make sure your actions are actually wanted. If you fail to do that and you end up violating someone’s boundaries, the fault lies with you, not with the person violated. Especially if they’ve said no, gestured no, and explained why they are saying no, and yet you still proceed with sexually advances. There is no defense for that.

He could simply not want anyone else to put themselves out for them. He could be having a bad day, and just doesn’t want to interact with anyone. He could have been angry that the last time he was coming to this door, no one helped, and is now angry about the door in general, and anything associated with it.

Or he could just not want help, just as he politely explained, with sign language and everything. Isn’t that much more likely than that last concocted scenario? Seriously, I don’t get how a reasonable person could parse such alternate interpretations out of a very clearly stated “no”.

What strikes me is that the first two interpretations still very much equate to “I don’t want help”; do you not see this? Not wanting to burden anyone else and not wanting to interact are perfectly sound reasons for refusing a stranger’s assistance. For all Door Man knew, the real reason was that Ambivalid likes the sense of accomplishment that comes with taking care of his own needs. Guess what? That too is a perfectly good reason to refuse assistance. Door Man’s desire to be helpful does not trump any of these interpretations.

Well, of course not, but that’s the thing, Door guy doesn’t have that. HE may not even have all the information that we have.

If he answered “well, I’m going to help you anyway” it sounds like he did. His words indicate he heard and understood a refusal to his offer.

After reading this thread, I would tell him that he probably misperceived the situation, and that his desire to help is to be commended, but that he should be better at understanding what help is actually desired before forcing it upon others.

I would say the same thing. I would also point out that his initial impression about the guy wanting to be left alone was probably the right one and this should’ve caused him to slow down a bit.

I would then ask him to elaborate on why he thinks this one situation should put him from off from making similar offers in the future. It’s clear to me the error didn’t come from asking; it came from asking and then going against the guy’s wishes. If he’s been in the habit of opening doors for others all of his life and this is the first time he’s rubbed someone the wrong way, some perspective is in order. Miscommunication happens all the time; live and learn.

[Ashtura]

Well, and I say this in all honesty, I think you should raise a gofundme page to create a billboard on a busy freeway telling people not to open doors for people with wheelchairs unless they ask for it. Maybe if it really gets a good response, take out an ad on for the superbowl.

Most people do not see a person in a wheel chair on a frequent basis. In fact, when they do, they’re usually accompanied by an assistant who’s going to make this a non-issue. There just aren’t that many of solitary wheelchair users out there for the occasional one on one service announcement to have any meaningful effect whatsoever.

I suppose you can post this same thing on every internet message board you find too. I know* I* will think twice before opening the door for a person in a wheelchair from now on.

[alice_in_wonderland]

@Ashtura

Most people do not see a person in a wheel chair on a frequent basis. In fact, when they do, they’re usually accompanied by an assistant who’s going to make this a non-issue. There just aren’t that many of solitary wheelchair users out there for the occasional one on one service announcement to have any meaningful effect whatsoever?

Joke, right?

Otherwise, where do you live? I see folks in chairs everyday and never with handlers.

[monstro]

@alice_in_wonderland

Joke, right?

Otherwise, where do you live? I see folks in chairs everyday and never with handlers.

I do too. But I live down the street from a residential home for the disabled. Many of its residents, almost all in motorized wheelchairs, take their daily constitutionals all over the neighborhood. Most of the residents I see are severely disabled with little to no upper body mobility, but they are still out and about all by themselves.

I am guessing if they weren’t just tooling around passing time and they actually to had to go to a place with non-automatic doors, they would have a helper with them. They would not want to rely on the kindness of strangers because strangers, let alone kind ones, are not always around.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

[Jeff_Lichtman]

@Ashtura

Well, and I say this in all honesty, I think you should raise a gofundme page to create a billboard on a busy freeway telling people not to open doors for people with wheelchairs unless they ask for it. . .

This isn’t the Pit, so I’m going to avoid inflammatory language.

Why do some people have such a hard time seeing what really happened here, and what this is really about? Ambivalid did not object to someone offering to open the door for him. He objected to someone deliberately ignoring his explicitly stated wishes. This doesn’t have to do with doors. It has to do with the disrespect that the disabled regularly encounter.

As for people in wheelchairs having assistants: I don’t know what world you live in, but I see unaccompanied people in wheelchairs all the time. It’s more common not to have an assistant than to have one. One of my city council members is a wheelchair user, and she doesn’t have an assistant following her around. A member of a civic group I belong to uses a wheelchair, and he doesn’t have an assistant.

[wonky]

@Ashtura

Most people do not see a person in a wheel chair on a frequent basis. In fact, when they do, they’re usually accompanied by an assistant who’s going to make this a non-issue. There just aren’t that many of solitary wheelchair users out there for the occasional one on one service announcement to have any meaningful effect whatsoever.

Like others, I’m baffled by the idea that most people in wheelchairs have assistants. This is not true of the vast majority of wheel chair users I know.

[Ambivalid]

@Ashtura

I know* I* will think twice before opening the door for a person in a wheelchair from now on.

Wow. Did you ever have a tenous hold on caring for others! You should work on that.

[Machine_Elf]

@alice_in_wonderland

Joke, right?

Otherwise, where do you live? I see folks in chairs everyday and never with handlers.

:dubious: “Handler” makes it sound like the person in the wheelchair is a trained circus animal.

When I see a person in a wheelchair, they are hardly ever accompanied by an assistant. However:

• I rarely see a person in a wheelchair at all;
• It’s extremely rare that I actually interact with a person in a wheelchair.

I suspect this is true of most people, despite a couple of anecdotes here to the contrary.

[Bullitt]

@Machine_Elf

:dubious: “Handler” makes it sound like the person in the wheelchair is a trained circus animal.

When I see a person in a wheelchair, they are hardly ever accompanied by an assistant. However:

• I rarely see a person in a wheelchair at all;
• It’s extremely rare that I actually interact with a person in a wheelchair.

I suspect this is true of most people, despite a couple of anecdotes here to the contrary.

Agree here. Except at work where I made friends with this one guy and we worked together for about 10 years. Other than that minor exception I agree completely.

[monstro]

Anyone else wondering why the meaning of “no thanks” would be correlated with the degree of familiarity one has with a certain demographic?

I have no experience with Inuits. But if an Inuit declined my offer to assist him with his igloo, I would hope my brain wouldn’t fart so badly that I would just flat-out ignore him. Doesn’t “no” mean “no” no matter who says it?
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[you_with_the_face]

@Ashtura

I suppose you can post this same thing on every internet message board you find too. I know* I* will think twice before opening the door for a person in a wheelchair from now on.

Because it’s too much trouble to treat them as individuals, eh? Like you do other people?

Good lawd, it’s like y’all are trying to prove the OP’s point over and over again.