**monstro **has helped me see the issue more clearly. Folks who must be told “no” repeatedly clearly aren’t interested in any answer other than the answer they want you to give.
I’m thinking back to a thread I started quite a while ago about people who, while at a function with music and dancing, insist that you absolutely *must *dance lest you miss out on having a good time.
At a wedding, for example…
Random Dancing Relative (from the dance floor) motions at Mean Mr. Mustard to join her on the floor.
MMM smiles, waves her off.
RDR gestures again, more emphatically.
MMM shakes his head, waves her away, still smiling.
RDR “dances” her way over to MMM’s seat (where he is comfortably sipping a drink), stands in front of him dancing in place, then reaches out, grabs his hand and attempts to yank him out of his chair because, ya know, he really does want to dance, just needs a little encouragement is all.
MMM reaches for her throat with both hands before being restrained.
In other words, ambi, don’t allow anyone to make you dance.
mmm
There’s very rarely a perfect response to this kind of thing. Maybe there’s a perfectly calibrated level of verbal recrimination that would have both allowed the transgressor to feel comfortable offering to help in the future without the chance of hurt feelings to the point that he never offers anyone help again. But that level will be different with every individual. And further, we’re just humans here, including Ambivalid, and we’re going to be annoyed sometimes, and it’s not that big a deal to express that annoyance verbally. Maybe Ambivalid happened to hit on the perfect level of recrimination to set the transgressor on the right path (offering help in the future but respecting the response of the individual), or maybe not. We have no way to know.
With all that in mind, a pointed verbal recrimination is appropriate when boundaries are violated, and that’s what Ambivalid did. It’s okay to be angry sometimes, and it’s okay to express that anger verbally. It wouldn’t have been okay to express that anger physically in any way, but Ambivalid used his words and that’s it.
Oh God no. Please let this guy understand I don’t need his ‘help’.
Yep, he’s going to do it anyway.
Remind yourself that if you get angry at this you’ll chew on it for months and it will then become your own problem. think - ‘I should focus on me instead’.
Say ‘thanks’! (in a lighthearted sarcastic way) then forget him and focus on yourself and your goals for today.
Alternatively
Oh God no. Please let this guy understand I don’t need his ‘help’.
Yep, he’s going to do it anyway.
I’m going to start a revolution in the way people think about and treat disabled people, starting today.
There’s no “should” when talking about feelings; one feels how they feel. I find your *actions * unwarranted and considering how often this topic comes up, I wonder if coming to terms with your issues might not be more beneficial than fretting over perceived slights.
Being handicapped myself, I can see both sides of the equation. If I’m perfectly capable of doing something myself, I would never turn down the chance to let another person help me. I’d consider it a mitzvah (good deed). OTOH, I do like to feel not handicapped and I’m certainly capable of doing a lot for myself.
You said the social discrimination might be conscious or unconscious. I expressed doubt that it would be conscious.
First example: My mother is close to one of my friends. My mother noticed that my friend was driving around with her three kids without car seats. My mother offered to buy her car seats for all the kids because she knew my friend was unemployed at the time. My friend refused because she didn’t need the help and didn’t want to be a bother. My mother insisted. My friend said she was fine and everything was okay. My mother bought them anyway. The next time my friend visited my mother, she admitted that she refused the car seats because she was living in her car and it was easier to sleep if there were no car seats. So my mother offered to help her find a home. She refused. My mother found one anyway and paid the up front charges. With that, her oldest daughter began to go back to school regularly. My mother agreed to watch her other two daughters from time to time while my friend looked for a job. My mother also paid for a cheap cell phone so my friend would have a reliable way to be reached by employers. My friend found a job and got back on her feet. When it was all over, she was grateful for the help.
Second example: I used to work for a non-profit organization that works to preserve affordable housing. One prospective client was a group of low-income co-op homeowners with a HUD-subsidized mortgage. They were paying their mortgage but were otherwise in default on their mortgage because the poor condition of their property caused failing REAC scores and unpaid water bills were converted to a property lien which further encumbered the property. Both were conditions of default on their mortgage. They refused our organization’s help. They made polite excuses about not needing help and about their not being any risk of foreclosure because they paid their mortgage. They were wrong about these things. We volunteered to arrange a cleanup day and do a few exterior maintenance items, like picking up trash, painting fences and railings at our own cost and with our own labor. They refused. We insisted and said they couldn’t really object if we just showed up on Saturday with some paint brushes and tidied up a bit outside. About eight of us volunteered. We didn’t ask anyone for help when we got there. We didn’t ask to be invited into anyone’s units.
When people saw us working, dozens of people came out to volunteer. Soon, we had too many volunteers for the fences and railings and trash pickup, so some people started cleaning out common areas in the buildings and doing a little landscaping. Others hastily arranged a barbecue for the workers.
One of the volunteers was a plumber so we asked him to do that instead of painting. We learned later that the housing association was responsible for all plumbing repairs on the property and in theory, there shouldn’t have been any unattended plumbing issues. Unfortunately, because the housing associating was basically broke, it simply ignored residents requests for plumbing repairs for years. Residents learned that they needed to pay for their own plumbing and they stopped filing plumbing repair requests with the association. Since plumbers were expensive but water bills were included in the association fees, the common response to a leak was to ignore it. So, the buildings were full of leaks but there were no records of where those leaks were. The plumber didn’t know where to go. We asked around. Everyone said their plumbing was fine. No one wanted to admit needing the help or perhaps they didn’t want to admit that they were ignoring plumbing leaks that were costing the association money. But, some of the neighbors would identify other neighbors who had leaks. The plumber started just showing up to houses saying “I’m here to fix the toilet” or “I’m hear to check the faucet.” People got their plumbing fixed and they would identify other people with plumbing issues. In some cases, people who had refused help when asked directly said okay when he just said “I’m going to fix your leaky sink.” Another volunteer worked in construction so we asked him if people needed repairs in their units. Again, people refused at first but using the same system of just showing up and offering to fix something, he fixed a bunch of windows, cabinet doors, and holes in walls.
At the next annual assessment, that building received its first passing REAC score in four years. Fixing the leaks also reduced its water consumption by around 20%, which gave it better negotiating room with the water company. The co-op agreed to work with us and we started tackling financial issues at the property, like how their hired property manager wasn’t doing a good job of collecting fees and was essentially giving units away to people for bad reasons. This put them on a firmer financial footing and left them better able to tackle deferred maintenance and overdue bills. Residents went from being quietly afraid of losing their homes to foreclosure and developers to willing to make investments in the property to make sure they could keep it. Getting people involved in the clean up helped to remind residents that they had the power to affect how their building was run. Straightening out the property was a multi-years long undertaking and I wasn’t there at the end but they were grateful for the assistance. They just needed to accept a little help.
I don’t understand your reaction here. Why not just say “Thanks!” and then put the cookie on your desk or something and then forget about it? Why make a big long drawn out refusal process? I don’t get that.
As for the door, why not just sigh to yourself, realize that a lot of people are morons who don’t listen, and then just let the guy open the door and then say “Thanks” and then forget about it? Why the big ado about it, and then opening threads on this message board and what not?
People not in wheelchairs have to deal with stuff like this everyday too. People who want to hold doors open, so I have to walk a little faster to let them hold the door for me. I just sigh to myself and continue on with my day.
There is a road right in front of my work, and there is no crosswalk there. But people stop driving if they see me anywhere even close to the road to let me cross. Then I have to walk more quickly to cross because they are waiting. Now I just pretend like I’m NOT crossing the street, just so people will drive their cars on the road. Annoys me for a few seconds and then I forget about it.
Others offers of help, I usually say “No thanks” once, then if they insist, I just let them do it. Hey, if they want to carry a heavy box or whatever and I don’t have to do it, good for me.
I work with many people who are wheelchair users or who have other disabilities and I witness how they are condescend to and patronized. One guy I used to spend a lot of time with, a wheelchair user with cerebral palsy, is treated as if he’s a child. No, he’s treated as if he’s not there. Something I catch myself doing is thinking “But he has multiple PhDs!” as if a person in a wheelchair without multiple PhDs is somehow more deserving of that sort of dismissive behavior. That’s also not a helpful way of thinking, and I try not to fall into that trap.
As a woman, I feel like I run into situations all the damned time where a man is “helping” me by doing things I don’t want him to do, in ways that force me to change what I was doing (and in the worst scenarios, in ways that would force me to touch him if I went along).
Ambivalid, I would have been infuriated. Being asked and then ignored is taking the whole “for your own good” thing to an even more frustrating level. With Bill, sometimes I would say “Is it helpful if I do X?” Most of the time, though, he had a system, and he didn’t design it with me in mind. Wacky, I know!
Because I didn’t want cookies! If she wanted to just give them to me, she shouldn’t have bothered asking. But she did and I gave her my answer. A truly nice person would say something like “OK, if you change your mind, just come and get one.”
This particular coworker has done the cookie dance repeatedly with me. On my birthday a few weeks ago, I almost raised my voice at her because she wouldn’t stop offering to buy me a cookie. And she never does this shit with anyone else. I actually think she is on a mission to make me as fat as she is. I suspect it bothers her that I am not constantly nibbling on junk food. So I refuse to indulge that kind of insanity. I can be polite and kind to someone without allowing them to manipulate me.
This goes back to a sub-discussion earlier in this thread about people speaking literally and having their words taken at face value. Or not. In this case, he was asking if help was wanted, but he wasn’t literally asking. His inquiry was a veiled declaration, i.e. “I’m going to hold the door for you.” I think his strong expectation was that his good deed would be appreciated, and he didn’t have a contingency plan in case it wasn’t. And when it was made explicitly clear that not only would it not be appreciated, it would actually make the situation more difficult, I think the guy was so baffled that he couldn’t come up with anything other than sticking to his original script.
Having issued a clear refusal, and having even explained that his “assistance” would actually make things worse - only to be met with dogged insistence on carrying out his detrimental action - I’d probably feel like beating the guy black and blue. It’s absolutely infuriating when you express yourself as clearly and explicitly as possible, and the recipient either ignores or discounts what you’ve said.
Not sure on this one. I think you’re right that it wasn’t about you, it was about him. But was it that he wanted to feel like a good person by doing it, or is it that he would feel like a bad person if he walks away while you’re wheeling up to the door? Some of us don’t have much (or any) experience interacting with wheelchair users. We look around and see automatic door opener buttons and front-and-center parking spots for the handicapped, and infer that daily life must be more difficult for disabled folks. So we offer to help when we see an opportunity to do so, and it’s hard to comprehend that such an offer might be unwanted; it’s even harder to comprehend (as some here in this thread have demonstrated) that such an offer might actually make your life more difficult.
I don’t think it’s about putting you into your place in some social hierarchy.
To review, your reaction was:
Not bad for an on-the-spot-improvised response to the situation. The next time he’s faced with a situation like this, maybe he’ll have a little less certainty about whether help would be appreciated, and maybe he’ll be a little more likely to take a “no thanks” at face value.
But if we’re Monday-morning quarterbacking this, then instead of making accusations about what’s going on in his mind, you might have explained to him what’s going on in your mind. Or you might have asked him, “why would you insist on holding the door after I’ve told you that it’s easier for me if you don’t?” And then earnestly waited for a response, assuming you weren’t short on time. I guess it all depends on what your goal was for your verbal interaction with him (after the ill-advised door-holding had taken place). Did you just want to vent your frustration? Did you want to make him feel bad? Did you want to educate him so he’s better equipped for future interactions with wheelchair users? Maybe a little of all three? If you can think about what you want to achieve with your interaction in the future, you can maybe tailor your response to best achieve your objectives. Difficult to do all that on the spot, but with forethought, you can maybe have something ready to say if (well, when) this sort of thing happens again.
Because then it’ll keep happening. The Cookie Fairy will internalize this idea that Monstro’s refusal is never a refusal; it’s just resistance that needs to be worn down and overcome. The message needs to get back to Cookie Fairy that when someone says they don’t want a cookie, they really do mean they don’t want a cookie, and CF should stop wasting time (and cookies) believing the opposite is true.
If I were in Monstro’s situation, I expect I might go put the cookie back on CF’s desk, with an explanation (if CF happens to be there) or without (if not).
I agree with this view. Sometimes well-meaning gestures are rude and warrant a blunt response.
I didn’t read every response in this thread, so someone else may have already mentioned something similar. This is reminiscent to how I feel when perfect strangers tell me to smile. Do these people mean me any harm? Very unlikely. They most probably think they are offering friendly encouragement and nothing more. But that intention doesn’t change how I receive it. It comes across as disrespectful of my autonomy (um, this is my face not yours), indifferent to my experiences and feelings (like, why should I only look happy in public…am I not entitled to my own emotions?), and personally invasive (why are you disturbing me when I’m deep in thought, dude?)
I’ve said some unkind things to people who have ordered me to smile and I don’t feel bad about it. Sometimes that’s the most efficient way to get through to someone who is being obliviously insensitive.
This has nothing to do with you being disabled. I’m giving you the same answer I would give anyone else in a similar situation. Somebody being unintentionally rude to you does not give you justitification to be intentionally rude at them.
I wonder my experiences in Japan are somewhat similar.
I lived in Japan for about 25 years, spoke Japanese fluently, and was a completely functioning adult in that society, including setting up and running a couple of businesses.
However, it would be really annoying when people would just assume that I couldn’t understand Japanese, Japanese society or whatever else.
There are far too many incidents, but here are a couple of examples. It seemed to happen anytime I would go shopping with my Taiwanese wife. She’s no more Japanese than I am, but looks like she could be. One time, we were looking for a new laptop and I was asking the salesman some questions. He would answer my wife. Look at her, make facial gestures to her, and look at her eyes to see if she understood his answer. This was all despite the fact that I was asking him the questions, she was not answering or responding to him and I was doing all the follow up.
It was this weird dynamic where he just simply couldn’t accept that a non-Asian could speak Japanese. I would first politely interrupt him and he would briefly look at me, before going back to looking at my wife. Then I explicitly told him that I speak Japanese, that my wife knows nothing about computers and told him to talk to me and he still couldn’t do it. Eventually, I got really frustrated with him.
Another time I was with a subordinate and we went to a drinking establishment. When it was time to go, the mama-san refused to give me the bill, because “guests” never pay and because I was an American, it was inconceivable that I would be anything but the guest and not the boss. It did not matter what I said, she knew better and refused to listen to me.
The most irritating though, is when they would suddenly switch to broken Japanese as if somehow that was going to make it easier for me to understand. Despite me telling them, in fluent Japanese, that it was much, much easier if they spoke normal Japanese, somehow they thought this was helping.
Because if she is moronic enough to put cookies on my desk after I have told her I am not interested, I hate to see what she will do if I pretend that I like them.
I did not read any replies yet because I did not want them revising my opinion.
I mostly agree with your interpretation of his actions, especially because you made it very clear to that guy. I don’t agree so much about what you told him, but I certainly understand it and I hope that guy thinks on your words and learns something from the encounter. If his intentions were good, let’s hope he does learn.
Some people are more codependent, and they think they’re doing you a favor when really they’re not, even though their intentions are good. And then some people are just jerks, feigning helpfulness but really sending a mean message. And some are passive-aggressive. It can be hard differentiating between them, especially with strangers.