Care to guess what city’s papers ignore AP style?
http://blogs.kansascity.com/tvbarn/2007/08/fundamentally-f.html
Since you were factually wrong about the Wiki link you gave, you probably also want to ignore this Wiki link:
Who ever said otherwise? How did it even come up in this thread?
Right.
This appears to be factually wrong. They call themselves fundamentalist Mormon because they claim to be a more authoritative representation of “true” Mormonism than the LDS.
I wasn’t factually wrong. You’re cherry-picking words from sentences.
I assume they say that “Mormon” should only be used to refer to members of the LDS Church in Salt Lake City? I can understand the desire of Mormon leaders not to be associated with groups like the FLDS. There’s a lot of confusion and false information out there about what Mormons believe, and, admittedly, the use of the term “Mormon Fundamentalist” can help add to the confusion of the ignorant.
But the Church is fighting a losing battle on this one in terms of terminology. I mean, even the Deseret News, which is owned by the Church, has used the term. See here:
or here:
or here:
Besides, Daniel Quinn uses the term, and that’s good enough for me.
Interestingly, they don’t apear to refer to themselves as ANYTHING on that site – it’s virtually empty, except for a few biographies of what they consider their prophets. A whois lookup reveals that their site was likely only created a week ago, probably so they could link to their captivefldschildren.org site and beg people to donate to their righteous cause.
Did you quote the right post? I didn’t see any hostility, much less a personal attack.
-FrL-
Err…Michael Quinn, not Daniel Quinn.
I was listening to an ex sect member on Coast to Coast (yes, I know). She talked about the 2nd, 3rd, 4th… wives. Since they are not legally married with no source of income they apply for welfare/food stamps. I guess that works if you have bunk beds. Women are controlled by the men in many ways. One way is property. The men deed the houses to the cult making it impossible for the women to bail after he is dies. Basically it’s a commune with a Mormon face on it. The boys are sent away at early ages if they commit minor infractions (dancing, talking back). Didn’t quite understand how that worked but it eliminated the competition. She made it sound like a pedophile factory.
Yes, I meant to include his “That’s right. You don’t know.” post in that quote.
TWEEEEET!
Everyone cool off before this moves into the arena of personal attacks.
Here is the position of the official news agency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints:
The FLDS should not be referred to as “Mormons.”
I will point out that they used one analogy that is really irrelevant: They note that Lutherans and other Protestant groups are not called “Catholic” even though such groups use the same scriptures as Catholics.* That, however, is not a valid comparison, since the overwhelming majority of Protestant denominations explicitly rejected the word Catholic several hundred yerars ago. A better comparison would be to the several “National Catholic” churches that broke with the Vatican following the First Vatican Council in the 1870s. The split was very much along a single point of doctrine (papal infallibility) and they all continue to use the name Catholic to identify themselves–a point with which the Roman Catholic Church takes no issue.
However, Monty did bring up a separate claim that would go further toward resolving the issue: do members of the FLDS refer to themselves as Mormon or not? If anyone can provide a citation to an FLDS statement that describes the group as Mormon, that would change the discussion from one of outsiders (mis)labelling a separate group to one of schismatics fighting over the use of a name.
Is there any evidence in either direction?
(There is clearly precedent for the media badly using the word “Mormon.” The Kirtland, OH murders by the Lundgren family were often called “Mormon” murders incorrectly. Lundgren had split from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (a denomination that has since changed its name to Community of Christ and which had never been known as “Mormon”), so Lundgren never had a connection to Mormonism. The current case is not nearly so clear.)
From http://www.religioustolerance.org/flds.htm
You are not going to find any quote about the FLDS that refers to them as Mormons. The mainstream LDS church has taken care of that, telling everyone that the FLDS are “not Mormon” and even putting it into style guides. However, I believe they should be called Mormons. Here are my reasons:
The FLDS are a splinter group of the mainstream LDS church, breaking away in 1951. They utilize the Book of Mormon as one of the scriptures of the church.
Their belief is that modern-day leaders of the mainstream LDS church have changed and watered down the truth as taught by early mormon leaders Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. In personal interviews I had with FLDS leaders Rulon Jeffs and Dan Barlow in 1986 after the death of their leader Leroy Johnson, they truly believe that they are the true Mormon church. The group in Salt Lake City, the group with the claimed 13 million members, are the apostates and should not even claim the title of Latter Day Saint or Mormon.
I hope I clarified some things. They have every right to be called Mormon, as they revere the Book of Mormon as inspired scripture and claim to be practicing the original Mormon faith as taught by Smith and Young in the nineteenth century. Their leader is known as the “Prophet, Seer, and Revelator,” the same titles applied to the leader of the mainstream LDS church.
The fact that the Salt Lake split-off group (the mainstream LDS church) doesn’t want them to be called Mormons should not even enter into this discussion.
Oh, please. The mainstream LDS church does not publish the AP Style Guide.
It’s not the FLDS (or any of the groups we’ve been talking about), but here’s a case of the Strangite church using the name “Mormon”
No one is saying they do, and no one is denying that the AP Style Guide reserves the term “Mormon” for the mainstream LDS church.
Scroll up. Rico clearly said the mainstream LDS church is the one who put it into the style guide. The AP, not the church, put it in.
But, getting back to the topic, it’s quite clear that the FLDS are not blithely “getting away” with ignoring the laws. And the authorities have acted on information they found to be credible. It will be an interesting court case or number of cases, no doubt.
A littel bit about how they finance themselves: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl//5716417.html
“The money came from Warren’s milkers. It’s like he’s got electric milkers on a bunch of dairy cows. He’s got all these people, and he’s milking them for all they’re worth,” said Richard Holm, 55, a Utah businessman who left the sect years ago after contributing more than $5 million in cash and property. “The Texas compound is supposedly for some of the elite that were culled out of the common folks and riffraff who were left here to work and send money to the elite over there.”
"Marvin Wyler, 63, is a polygamist who broke with Jeffs several years ago but who still lives in Colorado City, which many residents call Short Creek. He agreed that many families made great sacrifices to build the ranch.
“A while back, even two or three years ago, they were asking $500 to $1,000 a month from each family. And they had scores of men go down there and do the building. They worked for nothing,” said Wyler, who has 34 children by three wives and more than 100 grandchildren.
According to Ben Bistline, a former sect member who wrote a history of the polygamists, Jeffs raised additional millions by selling properties owned by the church’s community trust, called the United Effort Plan, and by persuading sect businessmen to kick in large sums."
"Male sect members are sought by contractors in the construction and home-building trades, he said.
“They are very skilled, hard workers. You can hire them and get away with underpaying them, or in the case of young people, paying them nothing, and giving all the money to Warren,” Bistline said."
Another source of church funds was the profitable businesses that employed sect members, Bistline said.
“There are people in the organization who are very skilled at producing money. There was one business, Western Precision, that did things for the military. That was bringing in millions,” he said. “That’s where the money came for Texas. They’re not making any out there.”
The Fort Worth Star-Telegram has reported that John Nielsen, a former employee of Western Precision, which is now called NewEra Manufacturing, claimed as part of a civil lawsuit that sect members were made to work for little or no wages and that up to $100,000 in monthly profits were donated to Jeffs or the church.
The company has obtained government contracts worth more than $1.2 million in recent years, mostly for aircraft parts for the Department of Defense, the newspaper reported.
So, if I start a breakaway wacko group and call myself a Martian, then the media should refer to me as that, but perhaps make an aside that I am not really from Mars?
It seems to me like the media should refer to a group as what they factually are, and not what they like to call themselves. If they are not truly Mormons, then it opens the door to massive misinformation that this is what the LDS church in Salt Lake City does…
It would be the very poor journalist who did not report that you called yourself a Martian.
In answer to the OP:
The reason it goes on is that (a) they tend to keep to themselves and (b) all sorts of weird interpersonal relationships go on across the world without the government getting involved.
Let me stipulate that I think these guys are weird, I don’t know if statutory rape laws were broken, and I don’t love the idea that they are, like a lot of modern day cults, probably leeching off of government.
But I’m always bemused when the government decides to come down like a ton of bricks on “polygamists.” In these days, if you decide you want to sleep with a bunch of young girls, impregnating some, there’s hardly any widespread stigma to that, nor government intervention – except if you then dress them in Little House On The Prairie garb and insist on “marrying” them. If you just want to f__k and chuck, as the kids say, well then you might just be in the NBA.
Isn’t it kind of weird, seriously, that in a world where this (Omaha News, Weather and Sports - Nebraska News - KETV NewsWatch 7) goes on every day, the only thing that gets the government riled up is when some religious types try to impose a (possibly perverse) form of “family” on their ‘polyamorous lifestyles’ as opposed to doing it white trash/ghetto style? And as for the statutory rape issue, given the normal demographic pattern whereby girls tend to hook up with somewhat older guys, I could probably find a case of statutory rape every two blocks in most urban areas. Are all those 16 year old ghetto moms being knocked up by other 16 year olds? I’d imagine a fair number are not, but are hitting it with 23 year old playas. Where’s the armed task force to rescue them or send the baby daddies to the pen (maybe there should be, by the way)?
Right. In terms of religion, no one is factually anything. It’s all what they call themselves.
And it would probably be difficult to find quotations from the FLDS on anything, because they’re an understandably secretive group that doesn’t allow members to own televisions or have uncensored access to newspapers, much less have Internet connections.
However, John Dougherty, who has interviewed numerous ex-FLDS people for his “Polygamy in Arizona” articles in the Phoenix New Times over the last few years, says in his 2006-05-26 article “It Practices What They Preach” that “[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’s statement that there are no “Mormon fundamentalists” or “Mormon sects”] conveniently ignores the fact that FLDS members refer to themselves as ‘Mormon fundamentalists.’”
Also, ex-FLDS member Benjamin Bistline refers to them as Mormons in his books, at least occasionally. In Colorado City Polygamists: An Inside Look for the Outsider, he said on page 191 that “All the little girls … are being indoctrinated with 100 years of Mormon Fundamentalism.” And in The Polygamists: A History of Colorado City, Arizona, he points out that it was only in 1991 that they even became “The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints,” and only in 1988 that they actually claimed to be a distinct church – before that, the considered themselves to actually be a branch of mainstream Mormonism, essentially considering themselves members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, because “the Polygamists were not the Church … the Main Line ‘Mormon’ Church was the true church, it was just out of order and the day would come when it would be set in order, with the ‘true Priesthood’ restored to its correct position at the head of the Church.” So it would make sense that they would call themselves Mormons, at least as much as mainstream Latter-day Saints do.
Finally, in my own personal experience, the two FLDS members I have known had no problem calling themselves Mormons, although they usually said “Fundamentalist Mormons” to distance themselves from the “gone astray” Mormons based in Salt Lake City. They had a particular distaste for Gordon B. Hinckley.