Mormon Polygamy

Great Debates
1

Note to Mods: this is an unapologetic PRODUCT ENDORSEMENT. I urge every U.S. citizen to read this book. [edited --Gaudere]

There are Mormon Fundamentalist communities in the United States (and elsewhere; as a U.S. citizen I will limit my comments to areas that fall under U.S. jurisdiction) that practice “polygamy.” This means adult men (some in their eighties) taking “brides” as young as 13. On their “wedding nights,” and on many nights thereafter, these men commit pedophilia, child molestation, statuatory rape, and forcible rape. Sexual child molestation against children as young as four take place in these communities. This is one of the most shocking, sickening, and disturbing books I have ever read. I refer readers to the book for further details.

I do not like to complain about situations without offering possible solutions for debate, so:

  1. Despite their hate of federal and state governments, these communities receive government assistance (the members of these communities refer to it as “bleeding the beast”). We should immediately cut off all public assistance to these groups. Please do not tell me that the women and children will suffer as a result; the men in these communities are responsible for the suffering of these women and children, not governments.

  2. In at least one of these communities, an incorporated city (I again refer readers to the book for details), the “church” owns all the land. There are laws allowing police agencies to confiscate land and property of drug offenders; we should immediately pass laws allowing police confiscation of land and property of polygamists.

Mere prosecution of polygamists is very diffucult, for reasons that are detailed in the book, and one prosecutor who successfully did so was voted out of office in the next election. The measures I have proposed would hit these groups where they live, and hit them hard.

I can’t believe we allow this in the United States.

[Do NOT use this messageboard to try to promote and sell anything without asking for and RECIEVING permission from the administration here. --Gaudere]

2

Just a bit of a nitpick:

From Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: po·lyg·a·my
Pronunciation: -mE
Function: noun
Date: circa 1591
1 : marriage in which a spouse of either sex may have more than one mate at the same time
2 : the state of being polygamous

This is the first time I’ve heard that in addition to multiple mates, polygamy automatically includes pedophilia, child molestation and rape.

Any cites other than Krakauer?

3

First off, I haven’t read the book, although I am familiar with the subject matter.

Second, please clarify what you think shouldn’t be allowed in the US. Is it polygamy? Religious freedom? Church ownership of land? If so, please explain what risks/dangers are presented by any of those that requires government intervention in the pursuit of happiness of its citizens.

Or is it pedophilia, statutory rape, child molestation, and forcible rape? If so, I thought laws were already on the books for those offenses. And if you want to suggest that either Morman fundamentalism or polygamy equate to any of those, please back it up.

Now, just a final parting thought. Child brides are nothing new to the world. In and of itself, I think it lacks a bit of cultural sensitivity to condemn it simply because it doesn’t seem “right” to you.

On the other hand, non-consensual sex (or marriage) is abhorrable - most will agree. And we can argue as to whether a child bride can actually provide consent. But as far as I know, the law permits minors to get married. And consensual sex with your spouse, no matter the age difference, is legal.

If you want to argue that the laws need to be changed, please specify which law, and why. If you simply want to detest the failure to enforce existing laws, you may have been better off in Cafe Society.

4

Indeed. It sounds like your problem isn’t so much with polygamy as it is with abuse, forced marraige, child endangerment/molestation/etc.

As for polygamy itself…hmmm…can’t see why I’d have a problem with it, so long as the women get to do it too. :slight_smile:

5

You’re OK with woman having many wives? Or do you mean polyandry? Or both? :smiley:

6

Well, yes. One would assume that the word would be transformed properly to agree with whatever it was referring to. Like if I said “I disagree with patricide, and I’ll extend that sentiment to mothers, too.”

But now that you bring it up, yes, I don’t see a reason to oppose polygamy for women either.

7

Y’know, my Mom used to believe that anything that was written in a book was true. If it was published as “nonfiction”, it must be true, right? Wrong. People say untrue things for any number of reasons. They want the publicity; they’re paranoid and believe it to be true; they have their own political agenda, whatever. Just because you read these things in a book presented as truth does not mean they are true. I don’t know how much of this is truth and how much is fiction. I don’t know the authors reasons for saying these things. Sounds pretty far-fetched to me.

Sadly, this kind of thing takes place in all kinds of communities. Are you asserting that in the particular communities of which you speak, it’s acceptable? If this is your assertion, then please include a cite. And don’t say “I tried to refer you to the book, but the mods wouldn’t let me”. If this stuff is true, you should be able to find news items, etc. to back it up. If not, I’ll chalk it up to an author’s over active imagination.

8

Just because you read it in a book doesn’t make it true.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) does NOT practice polygamy. If anyone in the church is found to be practicing polygamy they are excommunicated. People who practice polygamy can call themselves whatever they want but they are NOT LDS.

Next time you read a book about something that upsets you, do some checking and get the facts before you get your panties in a twist.

9

It sounds like the book you picked up was left on the non-fiction table by accident. Unless you have firsthand knowledge of the events described in your post, I suggest that that you are the victim of an author with a hidden agenda. The crimes you mention are atrocious felonies. No circumstance makes them any less felonious. I find it hard to believe any modern church would aid and abet others in committing such deeds.
Perhaps the villain in all this isn’t a church, or a group, but a person. Should we trust an author who writes, for profit, concerning such events, instead of reporting them to the authorities. Doesn’t sound like this author had much compassion for victims and their continuous suffering.

The Mormons I have known have been honorable, law abiding citizens. They would neither participate in, nor tolerate those who did participate in acts involving “pedophilia, child molestation, statutory rape, and forcible rape”.
I think you should get your money back on that book.

10

<Language nitpick hijack>

Polygamy is not “having many wives.” That’s polygyny. As polyandry is “having many husbands.” Polygamy is already ambisextrous and applicable to as many spouses of whichever genders you would like. Go for it.

</language nitpick hijack>

11

As I recall, historically, many of the polygamous Mormons had “child-wives.” If I am misremembering, then it was probably a more contemporary case with a “fundamentalist offshoot” of the Mormons. This is not a commentary on the modern Mormons, simply a note that I seem to recall there being a factual connection between polygamous Mormon…oids? and pedastry.

12

:smack:

I knew that, too!
:smack: :smack:

13

There are polygamous Mormon communities. They are offshoots of the mainstream Mormon church. That I’m aware of, this happens in America as well as Canada.

It isn’t a wonderful world for the women and children involved, from what I’ve read and seen. (By “seen”, I mean documentaries on television with interviews with women who had escaped.)

I don’t have any particular cites to give you except www.exmormon.org. It’s a message board for mainly ex-mormons, and the hushing up of child sexual abuse and the issue of polygamy does come up.

14

I know little about Mormons, but could it be that the people in the book are rather extreme or abnormal examples? In the same way, the vast, vast majority of muslims only have one wife (especially in today’s generation) and certainly they don’t marry until after eighteen.

But of course you do get village areas - particularly in places like Pakistan - where much younger girls are married off (say at 14 or younger) to vastly older men. And you do get sick fucks like a guy in Ajman, UAE who wants 100 children, so has just married his 12th wife (he’s 53, she’s 18, he divorced four previous wives and four died).

Most muslims I know - and particularly the younger generation - cringe at stories like that. It’s certainly not regarded in the true spirit of Islam to have masses of wives, by endlessly divorcing. Any more than it would be considered Christian to recruit an endless line of husbands from geriatric homes, a la Anna Nicole Smith.

So while I am sure these dodgy “mormon” living in extended (often incestuous - at least if a couple of cases in Australia are true) paedophilic certainly by most people’s standards - do exist, I very much doubt they are representatives of mainstream mormons.

15

Good grief–you can’t come into this forum and rave about a book? Can you rave about it in Cafe Society? The way this is written I’m not even sure which book although I strongly suspect it’s by a best-selling author who has climbed pretty high.

16

Again they may call themselves Mormons but they are not members of the LDS church. The church does not tolerate members practicing polygamy.

17

Sure you can come in and rave about a book. What is not advisable is to fall, hook line and sinker, for something like this and then go ranting about it like it’s proven fact. What isn’t allowed is coming online (at least on this Board) and saying “Go buy this product right now”. That’s why you can’t tell which book it is. . .the mods edited the OP so that it couldn’t sell the product.

18

Of course they’re not LDS. But could you call them Mormon heretics, that are an offshoot of the true LDS church?

Like the Sedevacantists are a heretical offshoot of the Roman Catholic Church?

19

Guin, that might be a good term for them. We often say ‘splinter groups.’ ‘Mormon Fundamentalists’ certainly isn’t a good descriptor–polygamy isn’t a ‘fundamental’ doctrine, and modern polygamists in particular are a) obsessed with one thing to the exclusion of other, more important doctrines (like, say, honesty and not abusing people), and b) have rejected the modern prophets and Joseph Smith’s preaching about them. It’s a rather self-contradictory position to take–deciding that Joseph Smith’s words are never to be superseded, but ignoring one of the more important things he ever said. In addition, several of them claim to be prophets themselves. (Orthodox LDS take a living prophet’s words to be more relevant than what a past prophet has said, since God may change parts of the structure of the Church to fit present needs. Thus while polygamy was important to the early LDS, it isn’t a core doctrine–like honesty or faith in Christ–and God can command it to be practiced or not, according to the needs of the Saints. The Book of Mormon people, for example, were specifically told not to be polygamous, as are modern Mormons.)

LDS Mormons–the ones you will generally meet unless you go out to a compound in the middle of the Utah desert–do not practice polygamy, ever. We are, in fact, mostly quite relieved not to have to do it. We aren’t ashamed of our heritage; rather the contrary. People whose ancestors were polygamous can usually tell you about it. (I have nary a one in my family tree, but my husband descends from a well-known woman, so I get to be proud of her.)

We are not exactly thrilled about the existence of illegal polygamous communities, but until recently the state of Utah generally left them pretty much alone. Unfortunately, the authorities didn’t realize that while just polygamy between consenting adults might be something they could leave alone, the isolated nature of the communities and the extreme patriarchical attitudes of the heads fostered terrible abuses.

Mormons are horrified by the stories coming out of some polygamous communities. We are also quite annoyed that many people assume that we are the same people and that the millions of Mormons in the US and other countries condone and endorse such practices. A little investigation would prove otherwise, but many people just don’t bother.

As for the book in question, I have not yet read or seen it. I have heard from other people who have read it that it uses a lot of secondary sources and not-very-good research about the early LDS Church and Joseph Smith. OTOH, he does seem to feel that he has made an effort to differentiate the Church and the polygamists. Many Mormons do not agree. At any rate, I’m certainly not going to defend polygamists, especially those who murder their sisters-in-law. Just don’t mix me up with them.

20

genie: IIRC, the reason the state government would leave them alone was because of the difficulty in prosecuting.