Should Fundamentalist Mormon polygamists be more aggressively prosecuted?

This month’s issue of Details (a magazine not known for its hard hitting investigative journalism) features an article on “The Lost Boys” (no link available but it’s on page 177 and can be read in line at the grocery store). Approximately 400 boys 18 and under have been expelled from Colorado City (along with Hildale a twin city Fundie-Mormon polygamist settlement on the AZ/UT border) in the past few years by Prophet Warren Jeffs, the sect’s leader, for such damnation worthy offenses as watching Charlie’s Angels while on a church trip to Salt Lake City, talking to a girl outside of their family, attending public school or watching anything other than a nature show on TV. The boys grew up so secluded and in such a backward area and with such little education (this is a city with a baby cemetery and all marriages are arranged) that they could not name the U.S. president, had no idea how to use vending machines and addressed black people as n*ggers to their face having absolutely no idea they were being offensive; needless to say they often went completely wild when they were evicted, often ending up working as hustlers and or hopelessly addicted to drugs. They believe their excommunications had much to do with the fact that there weren’t enough young girls to supply the Elders neverending need for new wives (marriages twixt teenaged girls and middle aged men are not uncommon).

There are several lawsuits currently levied against Jeffs (who is almost impossible to serve with papers) charging everything from illegal seizure of property to repeated sexual abuse of both male and female minors. There has not been an actual raid on Colorado City since 1953 (when it was called
Short Creek; residents are still known as Crickers- last year’s bestseller Under the Banner of Heaven was set largely there) and though bloodless that one was considered largely a disaster as most of the people seemed happy enough and went back to their polygamous environs as soon as they were released from prison. Times have changed since then with multimedia and while exactly how armed the compound is is not known it is definitely known that they are far stricter and more culturally isolated than ever before. There is much evidence that girls are being forced into marriage, and even adult women who enter polygamous unions do so with almost no knowledge of any other lifestyle or the world outside of northern Arizona.

In 2002 Tom Green, husband of five and father of more than 30 children, became the first person imprisoned for polygamy in many years (due in large part to having married a 13 year old when he was 40ish). Many libertarians were dismayed as Green’s wives were very upset by his arrest- none felt they had been “liberated” and all wanted him home, and the seeming happiness of many of these families (along with law enforcement already spread too thin for violent and drug related crimes) have prevented more agressive prosecution. However, the evidence of girls being forced into teenage unions, the seeming Stockholm Syndrome of many older women in the sect, the unbelievable power wielded by the “Prophets” over their flocks, the substandard education of the children in Colorado City and other homeschooling cult enclaves, incest, the financial mismanagement and blackmail of members of the cult, the turning out of adolescent boys for incredibly minor offenses into a world where they have nothing to barter other than their bodies (as many as 17 teenaged exiles lived at one time in a 2 BR duplex in the nearest city) and the possible sexual abuse of minors all seem to warrant going after this particular cult and similar offenses seem to occur in other polygamous unions (such as the incredibly wealthy and inbred Kingston clan).

Since the phenomena of modern day Fundamentalist Mormon polygamous sects is spread across several states, do you believe that the Federal government should dedicate millions in resources to crack down on polygamous communities, or do you fear they would do more harm than good (ala Ruby Ridge and Waco)? Do you believe polygamists who do not marry women under legal marrying age should be prosecuted? What about the women? Should the children of polygamous families be removed (assume that the families are stable and loving other than the polygamous aspect but that they have no intention of becoming monogamous)? Should they be able to take in foster children if there is no history of abuse? Should homeschooling be allowed among these communities if they are going to teach that men never walked on the moon and children cannot identify George Bush?

Eager to read responses.

I think your thread title is a little misleading - I came in thinking about them being prosecuted for polygamy, which my response to would be “please take care of real criminals, let 'em fark who they want”…

As far as fundamanetalists raising children in a vacuum…

Well, how do you feel about the Amish? There’s a whole generation of kids who aren’t playing UT2K4.

I’m a big fan of letting the kids explore the world on their own, so it does bother me that there are people who raise their children in a bubble. However, I’m not prepared to say that they don’t have that right (though I lean strongly in that direction).

Personally, I think they’re an ass-backward cult with kick-ass quilts and folk-arts. Their emotional abuse of (“Please, take a year, go out, see the world- if you want to join the English please do so with our blessing… just know that you’ll be dead to us and you’ll never be able to eat at the same table as any member of your family again until the day we die when, incidentally, you will be forever damned…”) earns them a place in hell. I see nothing quaint or wholesome about them. However, to the best of my knowledge they don’t have the history of violence and sexual abuse that is intrinsic to the Mormon Fundamentalists and as such, objectionable as their views are to me personally, I see no reason to prosecute them.

Well, this whole thing raises the question - how much control does a parent have over raising their kid? At what point can the state step in and say, “you are abusing this child”? What reasons could there be for the state to step in? Could a child being raised as a neo-nazi be intercepted by the state and taken from the parents? Are teh Amish abusing their children by denying them their right to a standard education?

Dun look at me, I dunno any of those answers. O_o

I’m going to respond to polygamy in general rather than patriarchal religiously-influenced polygyny in specific; I hope this is not a hijack.

I have no comment about Federal influence; I don’t think the Feds have jurisdiction to get involved, but I can’t base that on any particular study or knowledge of the specific subject, and I tend towards a feeling that Federal influence has expanded well beyond the limits set in the Constitution and thus the checks I’d expect to be there aren’t.

Keep in mind that “polygamy” is a gender-neutral term, encompassing polygyny (the most common form, historically speaking: multiple wives), polyandry (multiple husbands), and people who have spousal relationships with people of both sexes (probably entirely a modern phenomenon, coming with recognition of bisexuality).

While patriarchal, religiously-motivated polygyny is often coercive and abusive, it is not the only form of would-be polygamy that exists, even in the United States. (I say “would-be” because attempting to get multiple relationships legally recognised is both not possible – additional marriages, if they exist, are considered void – and illegal.)

Personally, I’m opposed to the notion that consensual adult relationships should be rendered illegal.

In the case of the patriarchal, religiously-motivated polygyny, many of the women have been subjected to what some folks would consider religious brainwashing. Further, their situations are typically worsened by a combination of religious strictures forbidding them to work (straining their finances significantly) and the fact that they have few or no legal protections because their marriages are not recognised by the law.

I’ve seen people suggest that a fair proportion of the trouble caused by this form of polygyny is ascribable to the atmosphere of secrecy and isolation that it generally exists in. I am not all that sure how fixable that is at this point, as the communities in question are pretty strongly clannish and isolationist and not likely to stop being so any time soon, even if their families can be given some sort of legal status.
As for the rest of us, no clue what the question’s asking.

If I had children, would you try to take them away from me? I am not and have no intention to be monogamous. And I am intending to have children within the next several years; I believe my partners’ other partner is considering it as well.

I’m moderately perturbed by “other than the polygamous aspect” raised as a contrasting point to “stable and loving”; is this an unfortunate language glitch, or do you believe that somehow polygamy is less stable and loving than monogamy?

Practically speaking, non-het-monogamous families have a hard time getting recognised as families at all, let alone acceptable foster families. This is arguably an issue to work on at some point when non-het-monogamous families are accepted as entities that exist as opposed to defective or substandard examples of “family”.

One thing at a time.

There are religiously motivated homeschoolers everywhere, monogamous and otherwise. If monogamous homeschoolers are free to teach their religious dogma over science and history and other subjects (as, in many places, they are) why should polygamous homeschoolers be treated differently?

Homeschooling has to adhere to a certain standard, does it not? So why isn’t it with these kids? I thought that if you wanted to homeschool your kid, you had to give them an education that was roughly equivalent in quality to what they’d get in public school. So if the govt. is not checking that out more closely, they should. The homeschoolers should be able to prove that their kids are getting a decent education (and that includes knowing who the president is).

As far as kicking out a minor child that you should be supporting, it’s neglect, isn’t it? If you can’t handle the kid, get the government involved, don’t just kick 'em out and expect them to fend for themselves. (And no, watching “Charlie’s Angels” doesn’t qualify as incorrigable.)

This are pretty basic issues. No, the government shouldn’t be looking the other way on them. If the problem is especially bad in these Mormon sects (which I am sure I shouldn’t have to point out, are not “mainstream” members of the LDS church), then focus on them.

If a polygamist family is getting along well, is raising healthy, well-educated kids and every partner in the marriage is old enough and independent enough to make free choice to get involved in the marriage, then that doesn’t sound like something I’d get all worked up about. But that doesn’t sound like what is happening with some of these people. It sounds like they’re a mess.

The problem with prosecuting the sects for clear criminal acts (including and in addition to polygamy) is manifold:

  1. Because their resources are held in common, their leaders tend to have great financial resources and can tie prosecution up in litigation that will last for years and result in slap-on-the-wrist sentences

  2. Colorado City is, frankly, a scary place where people are fanatically loyal to Jeffs and this could quickly go from a routine roundup to armed standoff that would be dangerous to children and very bad PR to the besiegers

  3. To arrest the father of an expelled son would result in welfare and state care for the remaining children (and the cult would argue that placing the children in any home other than a polygamous one would be a violation of First Amendment rights)

It is a minefield of a situation and that is 100% intentional by way of the community’s leaders. The cult has survived by being secretive, isolated and thoroughly committed one to another. (When a family is told to bring their 17 year old daughter to be wed to a 53 year old elder they do so unquestioningly, the same as they do when told to never again mention an excommunicated child, or when the wives and children of an excommunicated member are reassigned to another man (which is also done frequently and the subject of civil litigation).

Polygamist Sect married at puberty

Kind of surprised no one had started a thread yet on the situation in Eldorado, TX. so I revived an old one that seemed pertinent.

I really don’t care too much about consenting adults. If you want to have 7 wives and they are willing, go for it.

But the abuse of these children is just horrific beyond words. To read

that this is going on to the nth generation is just mind boggling.

How do you break the cycle? What will the State of Texas end up doing with these kids?

It’s a complex problem, isn’t it?

(Please bear in mind, btw, that while I am Mormon, I don’t know any more about modern polygamy than you do.)

IMO the generations of secrecy have led to a society that has festered and corrupted, and completely perverted itself. It seems to me that the polygamous groups were ignored for years in a sort of “live and let live” sense–the authorities didn’t want to interfere in adult relationships and persecute families. I don’t know if they realized how much young girls were being coerced into marriages with much older men. And that has to stop.

I don’t care much about adult relationships and all, but forcing teenage girls to marry religious leaders is horrific. They way they treat the young men is awful.

I homeschool myself, but even the most protective evangelical families don’t isolate their children to the extent that these folks do, and that’s not right either. They’re handicapping and stunting their children, not giving them a good education and unique opportunities (which is the point of homeschooling).

But it’s a lot more complicated than just going in, breaking up the community, and throwing the leaders in jail. So I don’t know what to do about it at all. There are what, 400? children who are now being put into foster care? How can we take care of them and cushion their shock and trauma? How do we help the young women and men overcome what they’ve been taught to become healthy? I don’t even know.

Depends on the state. Some states have strict rules about homeschooling, per your understanding, and some have virtually no rules at all.

As for the OP, I don’t see a good solution that won’t lead to a slippery slope of the government interfering too much into family life. However, when actual physical/sexual abuse is gong on, then it is appropriate for them to step in-- which I believe was the case in this recent incident. There are private organizations that offer help to those trying to get out of places like “the compound”, but they can’t force the kids to want to escape. Personally, I think that is the best approach, even if it isn’t perfect.

You simply CANNOT allow this type of thing- fortified armed compunds- even if everyone is ostensibly happy. If you had a strict religous sect that went by the bible to the point where they had slaves, would that be allowed? This isn’t the 19th century anymore.

And you can’t go by the fact that they look happy, and were upset that they were taken away- any child up to a certain age taken away from an abusive home and given to strangers will want to go back to the abusive home. You can’t have sects where outsiders aren’t allowed for miles- if a kid in an actual city is in trouble, he’s probably is close proximity to help, or at least an armed gate isn’t blocking his seach for it. These weirdos can and do literally anything they want to these kids, and becasue they hide under the cover of “religion”, its OK.

And morons who think that becasue the kids have on clean clothes and are fed and all that everything’s OK- most kids didn’t want to leave Jim Jones or David Koresh either, duh, becasue everyone they know is there.

Why note? It’s legal to have property, to fence or wall it in, and to own firearms. You couldn’t craft a law to make it illegal-- not one that would have a snowball’s chance in hell of passing.

Well, slavery has been illegal in the US for a long time, so no that wouldn’t be allowed.

Granted you can’t do anything about a guy with 5000 acres in Montana building a house ten miles from anyone else and molesting his kids there. You can do something about people creating walled cities with armed guards that prevent routine checkups of the well being of everyone there. There should be some sort of law that if you allow to have psycho crap like that, that they must be subjected to random welfare checkups of everyone there. This only got out because someone snuck out and complained, right?

And yes slavery is illegal, as is old pervs fucking twelve year olds.

What’s a “routine check-up”? Law enforcement officials have to have probably cause to enter your property. If they do, fine. But they can’t just pop in and see how everyone is doing. If they do have probably cause, then you can’t keep the cops out-- that’s already illegal, so we don’t need a new law for that.

Define “psycho crap”. Just because people choose to live together doesn’t mean there is “psycho crap” going on. We already have laws that prevent physical abuse. The problem with what you are proposing is that it would open the door for unlimited abuse by the cops.

Psycho crap- a perverted middle age man fucking and beating his ten underage wives.

How is being able to monitor this admitted bizarre scenario giving cops the right to abuse their authority? If they interveiw everyone and none of the ten year olds are pregnant or beaten up, what can they do? Wouldn’t you rather err on the side of caution when CHILDREN are involved- wont you think of them? :slight_smile:

But that is against the law.

When you say that people should be subject to random searches if they allow stuff like that, well, how do you know they “allow” that sort of stuff? Maybe you allow that sort of stuff, and cops should randomly check up on you.

Zombie thread! (But no objections- any thread about the Fundamentalist Church of LDS is quite alright by me; those people have fascinated me since as long as I can remember.)

For some reason, one of the most disturbing things to me about the children who were taken off the compound was (this was on the news) they did not know what to do with crayons; they’d apparently never seen them before. They’re deliberately kept so backwards that many have never seen an image on TV or been read a bedtime story without religious overtones either.

Other than the child abuse allegations what pisses me off the most about Jeffs is that he controls a fortune estimated at 9 figures, yet many if not most of the women and children on his compounds receive all manner of welfare/foodstamps and other government aid. He actively encouraged welfare fraud, calling it “bleeding the beast”, and since most of the families do not own their own homes (they’re FCLDS property) and have no father (they do, he’s just not on the birth certificate and has 40 other kids) they’re shoe-ins for state and federal aid.

Can you pass a law that requires all citizens to respond as thoroughly as possible to the decennial census? Can it be crafted in such a manner as to constitutionally red-flag some responses as probable cause for law enforcement agencies to dig a little deeper than a cursory glance in the general direction of the compound to check for an absence of mushroom clouds?

No, I would rather not give the cops the authority to search without probably cause. Basically, you’d put anyone with even a slightly alternative lifestyle at risk of harassment from the cops. Muslims have been known to allow multiple wives, so put them on the list for random searches. And don’t forget the gays-- everyone knows they’re the same as pedophiles!

What you are advocating is a police state. There’s no two ways about it.

Wow, I didn’t notice until you pointed it out.

See you guys elsewhere! :slight_smile: