Granted you many have some underage pregnant teenagers who were coerced to marry and have sex when under aged. Segregate those out and deal with them on a case by case basis if they are at risk. For the remaining vast majority of non-teen mothers and children, regardless of whether they married and conceived the children while within the appropriate Texas age of consent, that is in the past. It is absurd and cruel to shatter existing mother-child relationships where the children are in no immediate danger, and torture both mothers and children by placing them in foster care. The behavior of the state in this case is about as draconian and grotesque as the forced poly-marriages the authorities are militating against.
It’s disgusting to watch them shatter these families. The mothers and children are not the villains in this scenario.
If the mothers are raising their girl children and teaching them that at a young age (younger than allowed by state law) they are supposed to “marry” a much older man in the church, and the decision on whom to marry does not depend with the girl, but with the church leader, does that make them unfit mothers who are engaging in criminal behaviour regarding their children? In that case would it be OK to remove the children from the home?
Probably. And I say “probably” only because I am not familiar with the pertinent Texas statutes. Although I have been led to believe that polygamy is forbidden.
One thing that is common in most, if not all, CPS cases is that if you have a situation where ONE child has been abused, ALL of the children in that same environment are removed. So this would certainly not be the first time that such a thing has happened, although in this case a very large number of children is involved.
There are several things that make this FLDS case far more complicated than “families are being spit up and that is sad”:
paternity/maternity of the removed children are in serious doubt, apparently. Names (first and last) are so common and communal-style child-rearing so prevalent (multiple wives caring for many children) that the state-appointed attorneys for the children have reported not knowing which children “belong” to which biological parents. This is a large part of the reason why the children remain in custody as of 4/18: because, before Texas can legally take custody of any of them, they first have to determine who the biological parents of each child are.
There is NO guarantee that any non-abused children who would return to the compound would NOT face the exact same cycle of abuse later on in life that is allegedly being imposed upon the “child brides” now - in fact, one could argue that this would be a certainty given the apparent belief among the sect members that physical mistreatment of women and teenage “marriage” and sexual contact are NOT abuse. When the sect members tell reporters that “no abuse occurred”, it most likely can be translated to mean, “no abuse took place, according to our rules”.
The reason that the mothers were separated from their children in the first place (save the children under 4) was that the CPS investigators wanted to interview the children without the element of parental influence. I think this is a common thing especially when child/sexual abuse cases are the issue, but it seems especially important in this case because it’s pretty obvious that the women and children of the sect in particular are completely coached on how to respond to inquiries from “outsiders”. Their responses sound robotic, full of deference to the “prophet” and the ways of the sect, and completely oblivious to the fact that criminal activity may have taken place amongst themselves. While it may seem cruel to separate the mothers form their children, what kind of support would the mothers offer? All of them have been drilled with the idea that breaking from the sect in any way will lead them to hell. Any such reinforcement from the mothers, no matter how well-intentioned, would do nothing but discourage the children from testifying as to what actually happened.
I do agree that the mothers and children of the sect have a long, difficult road ahead. While it’s heart-wrenching to see families be separated by event such as this, it’s even worse to imagine them returning to a “family” that apparently has no interest in changing its ways for the better. If the only two choices are foster care, and a lifetime of physical and sexual abuse, I think the choice is obvious.
I haven’t followed the legal case that closely, but these people are not “true” polygamists in the meaning of the law, right? A polygamist (in the legal sense) would be someone who has more than one marriage with a marriage certificate at the courthouse. There is nothing stopping me from having as many “religious” marriages as I want and living with several adult women in the same house, even having children with multiple women (as long as all the women consent of course). As far as I know, the only reason that the Fundamental LDS are in trouble with the law is because of the statutory rape charges and also because some of the young women have claimed that they were forced into marriage.
These families aren’t families. They need to be shattered, and the lies and brainwashing needs to have a chance to get out of their systems. It’sa whole ugly cycle of brainwashing and abuse, not just a few scattered incidents. The cycle *needs *to be broken. Those kids need to be shown their “life” was a sick preverted travesty.
Astro, I am in complete agreement with you. The U.S. supposedly grants religious freedoms, and if people want to live in ways counter to mainstream perceptions of culture but are persecuted for it - permanently, as it appears in this case- I am offended.
The sticky point being abiding by the laws of the land, even though one might deem one’s God as superceding such constructs.
It’s frightening this was brought about by allegation. Enforcement of the law’s letter is incredibly heavy handed.
The authorities have been looking for an excuse to do something about this sect in Texas for a number of years now. Is it true that they haven’t located the girl who supposedly called this in? If they don’t find her, then this whole travesty was likely caused by someone who just wanted to stir things up and was hoping for exactly this outcome.
I agree that the mothers are not villains. However, it also doesn’t seem like the mothers are capable of providing a safe environment for their children. I know a mother who has problems with drug abuse and abusive men. I feel sorry for her, but I also believe that until she extricates herself from that situation, she has no business raising children. I feel much the same about the FLDS women. Unless they can get their children out of an environment where girls under 18 are forced to marry and where teenaged boys are driven out of their homes, then they are not fit mothers.
If the mothers and their children wanted to flee the compound and get integrated into the larger community, then I would absolutely agree with keeping them together. But if the mothers are hellbent on returning to their compound, then they shouldn’t be allowed to drag their children down with them.
“Religious freedoms”? I’m sorry, but forcing underage girls to have sex with you is NEVER okay, not even if you write it into your religious covenant or whatever. If you live in this country, you have an obligation to uphold the laws of this land. PERIOD. You could theoretically tell people to do anything in the name of one’s faith, but that wouldn’t automatically make that anything legal under the guise of “freedom of religion”. I could start my own sect of Judaism tomorrow and tell my followers that it’s all right to go out and shoot pig farmers because they’re raising animals that are not kosher, but my word as a self-described religious leader wouldn’t make it right.
As much as I don’t agree with the practice of polygamy itself, I don’t think the state should spend so much of their resources trying to prosecute people just for having multiple partners. And in at least some polygamist cases, I think the authorities don’t rush to prosecute, but simply don’t legally recognize any of marriages beyond #1. However, this is in itself not what the FLDS members are being put under public scrutiny for. If there were underage “marriages” and pregnancies occurring in an institutionalized fashion in the Texas compound, then that needs to be stopped.
Keep in mind that this is (for now, at least) a CPS case and that if the investigators determine that there are underage pregnancies among the removed children (and thus illegal sexual contact took place), then the custody trial will proceed whether they locate “Sarah” or not. I see her absence being a problem if they try to charge Dale Barlow (her purported husband) with anything, which I think will likely not happen at this point.
The case is about child abuse, not religion. It is now looking like the original call was a fake. But that doesn’t negate what the CPS investigators saw when they went to the ranch.
Probably the primary problem at this time is the lying and misdirection. On the initial visit, and upon noticing all the too-young-appearing pregnant girls, either the CPS worker or a policeman asked one girl how old she was. The girl looked to the man (her husband?). The man said “You’re 18.” The girl turned to the visitors and said “I’m 18.” This is a highly suspicious interaction.
Also, one of the girls interviewed at the ranch said something like “No age is too young to be married”.
At the shelter, the women gave different answers regarding the names and ages of ‘their’ children and were seen to be switching children between mothers during interviews. This seemed to be in deliberate effort to confuse investigators.
There are something between 16- and 20 pregnant teens (ages still to be confirmed as there is some misdirection on the parts of the kids and parents and few records) in the group- statistically too many for such a small group.
Ultimately, there is way too much stuff that smells wrong for these kids to be returned to their environment. It does not appear that the mothers are capable of protecting them and most likely are abetting the child abuse. They should not regain custody.
I’m also interested in Dr Bruce Perry’s writings about dealing with the Waco kids. Those kids were so inexperienced in making decisions for themselves (ex. for the FLDS kids: food, clothes, husbands) that they were incapable of deciding if they wanted jelly on their PB&J’s… Sad and interesting reads on the effects of the kind of abuse the kids undergo.
To those posters taking issue with my post #7, please note:
"The sticky point being abiding by the laws of the land, even though one might deem one’s God as superceding such constructs ".
My memory of Christian teachings is in the dim past,but ISTM Jesus said something to the effect of his followers having to abide the civil laws.
Also note this thread started in IMHO, not Great Debates. I’m not upholding anyone’s right to break the law but in this case the law wears jackboots.
Given the kind of fanaticism and ruthlessness involved here, it’s quite likely that if she’s not found it’s because she was murdered. Or she’s possibly being kept chained in a basement somewhere.
Just look at the numbers. There is something wonky there.
Of 416 children aged 17 and under, there are 29 boys. (Should be more like 200. Where are the boys?)
Of 387 girls aged 17 and under, there are 20 pregnancies. I can’t see that many pregnancies in a group of that size and probable age span.
Further numbers that may don’t add up- Of 60 men aged 18 and older left on the ranch, there were only 34 ‘husbands’, leaving 26 unmarried males. Again, where did all the boys/men go?
And don’t forget the lies. The members at the gate said there was no teen named Sara there. Turns out there were 5 Sara’s.