How far out of your way and against your own morals / ethics / beliefs would you go to please others who disagree with you, or expect you to act in a more conventional manner?
Do you mind being hypocritical to your true ideals if it means pleasing someone you care for?
This, summed up nicely what I think. This is something I would also do in that situation.
I don’t like to interfere in others expression of their beliefs, but I do expect the same courtesy afforded to me not to participate if I choose.
The question really is though, how far is too far?
Do you, as an atheist, care strongly enough about your position or your belief to avoid or refuse any / all of the following:
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[li]Bow your head in prayer at a family table, or say ‘Grace’ if it was your turn?[/li][li]To attend church regularly with the family and participate in religious services?[/li][li]To get married in a church at the request of your SO / family?[/li](Would you consider the taking of holy vows disrespectful to the church / minister / congregation if you knew full well it meant nothing to you?)
[li]To teach your children about God / Biblical stories and allow them to believe them, say creation and Noah’s Ark story, as literally true. Until they can decide for themselves. [/li][li]Accept that being hypocritical in your actions means less to you than disappointing the expectations of society / your family / SO?[/li][li]Any other issue where your beliefs conflict with the expectations of society in general.[/li]
Thanks for any replies.
[/ul]
Grace: I’d bow my head politely, though I’d probably be quietly plotting my grab for the mashed potatoes. I’d say grace if asked. It probably would be different from tradition, but I’d keep it non-confrontational.
Attend church: That’s a hard one, you’re asking for some serious time committment that could be spent sleeping. 'course, the irony here is that I’m usually up early on Sunday going to chapels around Tokyo in order to perform Christian-style wedding services, but there you go.
Get married in a church: If I were paying for it, I’d have qualms, just because I’d know I’m shelling out big bucks for some schmoe to do something I can do just as well myself (see above). If the parents were paying (or one of my friends or co-workers would do the ceremony for a discount), then I’d probably just go along with it.
Teach my kids: I’d tell them about Bible stories, but probably in the same way as I’d tell them about Aesop’s fables or stories of Zeus, Thor or Amaterasu.
Accept hypocracy: Hmm… By now, my wife, my family and my society (co-workers and neighbors) have expectations of me generally being a good-natured weirdo, so as long as I don’t take anything that seriously, there’s not much hypocracy to be had.
I’ve always felt uncomfortable identifying myself as an atheist, simply because I feel the label to be somewhat misleading. Positioning myself as someone opposed to belief in a god reminds me somewhat of positioning yourself in opposition to belief in the tooth fairy. I don’t really define myself as an anti-tooth-fairy sort of person, either, in much the same way that I don’t, as such, consider myself an “atheist.” I believe that it’s an irrelevant issue.
Anyway, long story short, because I don’t lend any special significance to Christian rituals, I don’t have any sort of opinion either way. The weight I give to performing them is solely on whether or not it would make my friends or relatives feel better and personal convenience. If they need someone to stand at their wedding, I’ll go. If it makes their dinner run better if I bow my head, I’ll do it. I’d be equally comfortable not doing it.
No feelings of hypocracy because I’m doing it as a kindness to others.
To me, it is like no one is willing to accept you can hold your opinion as strongly or as passionately as someone who has a strong conviction in God / religion. even accept that my opinion may in any way matter. Generally this may be true because a lot of the issues don’t really matter in the overall scheme of things, but the principle is definitely always one of “you must compromise what you believe to accommodate me, but you must never expect me to compromise what I believe to appease you in any way”. It is very one-sided.
And now I sound like a yappy teenager, complaining nothing ever goes my way.
To Slortar, if you happily (or not unhappily) participate in events / rituals for which you hold no interest or feeling, do you not feel you are being disrespectful to people who do hold the ritual important and meaningful? Is it not disparaging (to them) to just “go along” with the whole charade, pretend to be involved, whilst secretly thinking of other things? Would you mouth a solemn oath to another’s God without a thought to how they may feel about you belittling the meaning of the promise?
Does it never grate when it is always you who ends up compromising your outlook on life to satisfy other peoples expectations?
I’d always try and be polite - for instance if anyone says grace I’d bow my head and possibly say amen. I can’t imagine being asked to say grace, but I guess I’d say something non-demonational like “We are all thankful for the food in front of us, and appreciate how fortunate we are, etc…”
Should a fateful day ever come that non-b openly outnumber believers, it will work in your favor.
You’ve to live with others in the world. As long as your core decisions aren’t threatened, no problem in compromising elsewhere. And you decide what core decisions are.
I will always bow my head for grace. I bow my head when the Lord’s Prayer is being recited. I don’t recite the prayer because I can’t remember it. I would pass if asked to say grace but would probably say “Why doesn’t Aunt Alice say grace because she does it so well?”
I have never attended church services regularly but I have gone a few times with my grandparents/in-laws. It makes the happy to have me meet their friends.
I probably wouldn’t get married in a church but I did get married in a small wedding chapel. It was just the easiest place to find.
I would not teach my children bible stories at all. If when they got older they wanted to go to church I would let them.
Living in a culture that is not as obsessed with religion as USA, I’d say no to all the questions, with the exception that if I have to I attend weddings and funerals in churches.
Not necessarily. It means something to them, so I’m willing to make them happy. If it bothers them that I’m not a believer, I won’t participate. Really, it doesn’t mean much more than that to me.
As for “compromising my outlook” it doesn’t, not any more than participating in Halloween trick-or-treating would “compromise my outlook” on not being pagan.
Because they (children) will be taught it in school, at Sunday school classes, talk about these stories with their friends. To not teach them would be to remove a level of interaction from their childhood. Of course, I meant teaching them without adding the disclaimer that they are only stories, that they are allegorical in intent etc… concepts that children of a certain age may be unable to comprehend whilst still being interested in the story “with all the animals, the flood and the nice rainbow”
Gyan9 said “You’ve to live with others in the world. As long as your core decisions aren’t threatened, no problem in compromising elsewhere”
I know this. But, IMHO, this works both ways. I don’t see a whole lot of acceptance (in society) of my principles or core beliefs. But you suggest I should be content in compromising my beliefs and bowing to the majority’s whim, because they are (allegedly) the majority?
But I don’t want this to turn into a debate. I was merely interested in other peoples approach to living their lives out in a God-fearing culture with no actual belief in the society’s God.
Maybe a few of the Christians on the board could answer my previous question - would you consider it disrespectful for an atheist to be married in your church, vowing to bring God into the relationship and bring up any children in the church, without them having any tangible intention to actually do so?
I would pretty much do what **mhendo ** did. When I was younger one of my friend’s parents were a little on the religious side and said grace. I have never been exposed to that before. These days no one I knows says grace (pretty much all my friends are non-religious or non-Christian).
I have been in a church once. Don’t expect to be in another - ever.
My SO and I are not going to get married in a church here in Canada (AFAIK you need to attend the church to get married in it). We are planning on going back to her home country Bulgaria (and if I can afford it, back to mine, Japan) to get “married” there as well in a church (she just likes the whole “church” marriage thing). Things in Bulgaria work differently, all we need is money
I would teach my kids all about religion hoping to prepare them for the onslaught of messages they’ll get while in school. From TV to friends, to strangers on the street trying to “convert” them. I would want them to get into religion (if that’s what they want) with their eyes wide open.
Since religion is very unimportant with my group of friends and family I don’t have any expectations to live up to regarding religion.
<B>Aro</b> - As a Catholic, I would only encourage those who espouse the beliefs of the Church to get married there. In fact, I know the priest of my last parish won’t marry those who haven’t gone through marriage-prep with him, and if at least one of the parties isn’t of his parish. So you can’t decide that since it’s a petty church you’ll hire it and get married there. However, for my sister and her husband, who were living in Germany but wanted to get married out of St. Patrick’s, he did allow them to use the church, but another priest did the wedding (after marriage-prep in Germany - they provided a letter fromthe priest they went to).
