I realize that it’s new and still growing, but how big a deal do you think this is? Hogh end of the scale is Watergate and predidential coverup and possible impeachment, low end is Billy Beer possible presidential belch. Seymour Hersh’s latest article claims the abuse began as a black ops program personally approved by Rumsfeld.
It’s worse than Watergate. Watergate was embarrassing, but it was domestic. Al Ghraibgate has done far worse damage to the U.S.'s image in the rest of the world. It will be a recruiting tool for terrorists for years, if not decades.
Sadly, it seems as though there is a serious cover-up of higher-ups’ responsibility. Civilian political appointees at the Pentagon will ultimately be proved culpable.
Yes and no. It’s worse than Watergate in that the treatment of the prisoners there was inhuman and so far beneath the bar we should set for acceptable treatment of any human, even our enemies, that it horrifies me. But the US government supplying recruiting material for terrorists goes back as far as, well, pick your event. The installation of the Shah in Iran? The Cuban embargo? I don’t know.
But in the sense of long-term damage to the American political process, it’s hard to top the President of the United States, in his office, ordering flunkies to commit burglaries and stockpile cash in safes, and to use the FBI against his political enemies. America has yet to regain its trust in government (and it can certainly be argued, especially in light of recent events, that government has yet to earn the trust of the American people).
They’re all bad. All these things. They really frighten me.
But Bush is fully backing the man who, according to Hersh, ordered non-Pemberton interrogation techniques to be applied to Iraqi prisoners, despite scant evidence of then-al Qaida activity.
Of course, we need to determine how are we using the term “big deal.”
Are we rating the damage of the scandal domestically?
Are we rating the damage of the scandal internationally?
Are we rating the seriousness of the actions regardless of any political damage?
Is there some other measure or rating we are seeking?
In regards to the first point, we still have five and a half months to the election. Any number of events could overshadow this event to affect the outcome of the vote.
In regards to the second point, there are probably a lot of people who consider this SOP for large empires (or for the nation that overthrew the legitimate governments of Iran, Guatemala, Nicaragua (multiple times), Haiti, Panama, Grenada, and others (often with great loss of life for the citizens), prevented the treaty mandated reunion of the two Vietnams, and has maintained a number of disruptive wars throughout the world over the last forty years. Those people may simply see this as one more example that is hardly more damaging than the previous events.
In regards to the third point, I guess it would depend on whether one views the issues raised by the second point as (unfortunately necessary) realpolitik while this is a clear example of this country violating its own laws (via the UCMJ) or whether it sees the abuse of a few hundred people and the murders of a dozen or so as of less seriousness than the deaths of hundreds of thousands of other people on other occasions or the need to identify potential terrorists on the other.
And, of course, one can fill in one’s own blank for the fourth point to decide “how big a deal” this situation actually is.
However one views it, it was an incredibly stupid thing to do (especially given the large number of truly innocent people subjected to these abuses) in a country where we need to get the support of the local people fairly quickly and where we have squandered most of the (tepid and greatly exaggerated by the adminstration) thanks with which we were originally greeted.
Regarding political damage (domestic or international), there is a way to possibly turn it to the administration’s advantage.
Both the presentations by Hersh and the story in the May 24 issue of Newsweek have noted the way in which some of the abuse could be viewed as war crimes. A swift and honest investigation with a trial for all those reasonably responsible for this mess for any legitimately identified crimes would go far to reduce the “damage” both in the U.S. and in Europe. (A certain number of people will probably assume that scapegoats have been chosen, of course, and the percentage of people with that belief will be much higher in the Middle East, but at least it would provide some appearance to those kindly disposed that the U.S. was serious about avoiding future abuses. The current race to “limit the damage” to six or seven under-trained MPs is going to (legitimately) smell like scapegoating to everyone.)
True. But in addition to pissing off our enemies this one has “benefit” of alienating our allies. Britain is currently considering getting rid of their prime minister, in no small part because then want to disentangle themselves from the whole sordid mess. I can’t say I’ve heard a positive sentimate about Bush since I’ve been here…and Al Ghraib pretty much put the last nail in the coffin. And these are our closest friends…
It’s not all that big in real terms, but huge in terms of image. Bush-Cheney don’t care about how others think of them. Now they are going to pay the price of that hubris.
But note that it is the tip of several big icebergs. Now that it has finally become okay to criticize Stupid U.S. Stuff without being viewed unpatriotic, other things will soon follow.
For one thing, one group that was seriously involved in the torture are “private security forces”, one branch of the mercenaries that are behind a lot of the bad things that have happened in Iraq. The story of what these mercenaries have been doing, e.g., causing the Fallujah revolt, will be huge.
Note that the court martials cannot stop at the enlisted personal. Once the higher ups start getting prosecuted, the stuff they know will hit the newspapers. That will be ugly. These guys hate Rumsfeld and company and been waiting for their turn to take a shot.
The Big One, scandal-wise is going to be the Berg affair. So much bigger than Watergate that it belongs on a different scale. The US story on Berg is largely non-factual. He was held by Americans, but not regular US forces. I.e., those mercenaries again. He was interviewed by FBI agents about a weird connection to that 9/11 suspect. The mercenaries know this. A day after his release, he disappears. That Jordanian al Qaida guy is not behind this (or anything).
If what people suspect happened with Berg actually happened, Bush’s presidency will be over in a flash.
The lid is off the boiling pot, the water is going to boil over everywhere.
I’ve had my head in the sand for a few days. What do people suspect happened with Berg?
Some people suspect that Berg was in U.S. custody the whole time, and was executed by American personnel in masquerade in order to shift the focus of the international media.
It’s a pretty big “if,” that one.
(Unless ftg was referring to some other suspicions, that I’ve overlooked as well?)
Wow, that is a pretty big accusation. any supporting evidence, or is it just a loony theory?
I don’t know much about politicking or playing the game, but I’ve been wondering for a week if Bush can’t come out of his smelling like a bag of roses if he makes a big deal of firing Rumsfield. Especially now. “Rumsfield authorized this? He did it without my knowledge or approval, but he did it on my watch, so I have to let him go.”
According to this, Berg was detained by Iraqi police.
I’m leaning towards "radically loony theory".
Of course, these last few years have been so freaking weird that at this point monkeys flying out of my butt would elicit only mild surprise. So who knows? 
Actually, he said Rumsfield got Condy Rice’s approval. No mention was made of the president, and I for one am sure he’s too stupid to know what he approves of anyway.
On The Citrus X Scandal Scale, it gets a B minus. Morally distressing, too far away for many to care, hasn’t yet inspired window decals of Calvin peeing on anything.
citrus, I would agree with you domestically, but internationally, this is a whole different can o’ worms.
What we have here is a whole scale scrapping of The Geneva Convention, which could have any combination of three results. First, a wholesale dissolution of the Coalition of the Willing has been in the works for some time. This could end it all together. Second, The Geneva Convention has kept our soldiers safe in captivity, if we decide we no longer recognize it, then captor nations could decide they no longer need to apply it to our troops. Third, one thing our enemies felt secure they would be treated humanely if they surrendered. With that guarantee removed, why not fight to the death? This could make things a lot harder on our people in the field.
None of this even touched on the legal ramifications of violating a duly ratified treaty.
America is trying to convince the world that we’re the good guys, we want to make Iraq a better place for Iraqis, our women aren’t all prostitutes, and we’re not waging war on Islam itself. A few leaked photos put the lie to all of this in a flash. Forget Watergate; this is My Lai bad.
That’s the administration “spin”. The same people who said Saddam was friends with Osama and had WMDs. I.e., not in the least believable.
Berg himself told his family he had been held by Americans. The Iraqi police that were said to have held him have denied it. Ergo, the chances that he was held by regular Iraqi police is nearly 0%.
The Jordanian Terrorist Mastermind has been widely regarded to have been in US custody for at least a year. He is the Bush-Cheney “October Surprise” guy. (This was all pre-Berg.)
When the US magically decided that this guy was behind it, stomachs churned all over the globe. This is Not Good.
And to repeat: Berg was held by Americans, not Iraqis. Anyone that tells you otherwise is misinformed or lying. Since Bush spinners say this, you know what that means.
This is pretty fucking huge. I’d say much worse than Watergate, mainly because of the international factor. It couldn’t have come at a worse time, with sentiment going against us all over the world. I think we’ve just scratched the surface. I just scanned an article saying the JAG lawyers were forbidden to get involved with the prisoner/interrogation thing, and they complained that appointed Pentagon people were standing in their way. This whole thing stinks of corruption. I believe heads will roll, and heads will roll in high places. Pull up a chair. It’s going to be a long, ugly show.