Merc, you are an impressive young man. I’m impressed with your handling of this situation and with your openness on this thread. I intend the following observation in a positive way.
Your posts come across as self-centered. Two examples: You wrote:
That’s an honest and reasonable answer. However, note that opportunity or obligation to serve your country was not mentioned.
Back to the OP, your position on the integrity of not participating in the Pledge may make sense from your personal POV. But, you seem unconcerned about how your action impacts those around you. I recommend that you give more thought to that aspect.
I don’t believe America lives up to it. It’s not so much whether or not it is a statement or an aspiration, it is the fact that I’m pledging allegiance to a flag. An icon. A piece of cloth.
I don’t find it to be disrespectful. I would find something like kicking a veteran in the ass disrespectful. I am as greatful as the next person for my rights and I enjoy them each time I use them. Although sitting down and not stating the pledge may not rank up there with a Veteran’s Day parade, I do believe that its a way of showing respect.
Punishment for speaking out of turn, dispersing a group of kids in the restroom during class time and placement of students in classes is within the school’s power. They can do any one of these, as often and with as much punishment as they want.
Forcing me stand for the pledge is not within their power, even when I am told that I will be punished if I do not.
I still don’t see why sitting down would be seen as a sign of disrespect. If I didn’t clap for the President, it would not be the same if I booed him.
I considered this before I wrote the letter and I think enough of my fellow classmates that they can make their own choice. Unlike what PizzOff! believes, I don’t expect anyone to follow my example just because it might seem cool. I doubt that me sitting down quietly during the pledge affects people or draws attention to me. In fact, I have seen that it hasn’t.
Rmat sorta mentioned what I was sorta hoping to get at by asking if there was anything you would stand to recite, Merc. I do agree that you have the right to refuse to say the pledge, but I do also think that that act isn’t necessarily honoring the symbol or what it represents, but rather exercizing what the thing being represented affords you (unlike Rmat I wouldn’t use “trivializing,” however).
You seem to be looking at this from a point of principle, and I was hoping you might, for this thread, create a pledge to principle which you would find acceptable; or, if there were no such thing, that you would explain your feelings for that.
Hmm, upon preview I see you’ve responded already, in a way.
See, there is something I’m not getting here. I don’t think it is even on par with a parade; in fact, it is pretty much the opposite of the parade. Instead of praising the symbol and what is symbolizes, you are deliberately and purposefully ignoring it. That is not, or at least I cannot imagine it is, an act of honoring the symbol or the symbolized. The fact that the symbolized allows you the liberty to do such a thing is actually a red herring, IMO.
Again, I do not disagree with your choice, merely what you seem to say your choice represents.
Ah, it’s the “to the flag” part that gets you. You realize that the flag is not what you are pledging allegiance to, but the ideals “for which it stands.” The flag is just a symbol of those ideals. Just a Christian might genuflect when he passes a cross, it is not because he cares about the cross as a physical object, but the ideas/beliefs that the cross represents.
I don’t expect you to see why it is seen as disrespectful only that is is seen as disrespectful.
I don’t see a reason to refuse to make a respectful gesture if that is what’s expected of me, in fact I try to avoid disrespecting even accidentally or unintentionally anyone or anything that I do respect.
If, however, I have a reason to disrespect something that’s a different story. Is this what’s going on with you?
I didn’t think it was on par with it, either, which is why I used it. I don’t think that the opposite of holding a parade is ignoring one. The opposite of holding a parade would be showing up with protest signs, hoping to lure attention away from a parade. If ignoring something on purpose is a sign of disrespect, how many worthy causes have we all disrespected?
That part gets me moreso than others. In my letter, you can see why I disagree with the other parts.
I do have some quams with this nation, I think everyone does. I think through actions like the one I made, we can strive to make this nation a btter place for all. I am fully aware that I am far better off in this country than any other country, but just because something is the best, does not mean it is flawless and could not be better.
What kind of pledge I would stand for is not the point. If a pledge that I made up was approved and implemented in schools, I still would not support actions that would force a student who disagrees with it to say it or stand for it or actions that would punish students for not doing so.
I disagree. Forcing you to stand for just about any reason is within their power. But I’m 100% behind you when it comes to your right not to say the pledge or salute.
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You may disagree but many people find that sitting through the pledge or the anthem is rude and therefore shows a lack of respect. And I think the school can require you to stand because it is the polite thing to do.
Oh, I don’t think it is a sign of disrespect, merely that it isn’t an act which actually honors the flag. To use an analogy analgous to the one you gave me, I wouldn’t be respecting the death of a family member by not showing up to their funeral, even if that person explicitly told me that not showing up would be “OK”.
I suppose I am possibly being nitpicky. Not uncommon for me, honestly.
As well, I should have been more clear in regards to the context I was using to render the “opposite” argument. that is, the opposite of paying attention or recognizing the flag (in any way, good or bad) is ignoring it.
I am going to go out on a limb and say a person who will not stand during the Pledge shouldn’t be able to reap the benefits of this country and be deported.
I think that the problem is the idea that sitting shows a lack of respect. Last year I sat through the pledge and like everyone else in my class. This year I stand up and even occasionally say the pledge like the rest of my class. Either way I am showing disrespect for the flag as I am only doing either because its what the rest of the class is doing. To Mercuito the flag means enough for him to write a long letter about it. He shows more respect to the flag by dissagreeing with it than I do when I stand up and say the pledge.
I also have to say that the letter thing is a good idea. My only real annoyance in high school like that was when teachers would say “People who don’t vote have no right to talk about political matters”. I just out debated her in front of the class. If I had thought about it instead I would rather have expressed my concerns privately as I like the teacher and teachers don’t like it when you correct them in front of the class.
Homeslice: You obviously have no understanding of the concepts of freedom of speech and freedom of religion if you honestly believe that someone exercising both of those rights should be deported or should not be afforded constitutional protections.
To everyone else who is berating the decision of one person not to stand: As a Veteran I am glad to see someone exercising the rights I was defending and I felt that way when I was on Active Duty. If it requires an armed military presence to protect those people from thugs such as HomeSlice et al, then I’d be more than happy to go back on Active Duty to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States.” What you folks are advocating is pissing on that person’s rights; but not to protect any rights of your own, but rather to make yourself feel better, to feel “more American” than he. You are wrong. First off, it’s a cloth. It may represent certain things to you and it may represent certain other things to him. The fact remains that it is not a deity and it is not a person. Some folks’ religions (the aforementioned Jehova’s Witnesses, to name a few) prohibit any display of honouring in any manner a national emblem. Standing “out of respect” during the pledge would be forcing those people to dispregard their religion, again just to make yourself feel better. I was not aware that it was incumbent on another person to piss on his faith, or on his principles, so you could feel all warm and fuzzy.
Forgot something: The letter to the teacher was a good idea; however, an even better idea would have been, when she threatened you with getting sent to the principal, to say, “Okay, let’s go. Be sure to call the school’s lawyer when we get there. I believe the Constitution hasn’t been repealed yet.”
Ah, the old “love it or leave it” stance again. America is a country that you don’t have to leave if you don’t agree with something. America is a country that gives you the right to criticise what you think is wrong with the nation, to work through the laws of the Constitution to change what you think is wrong, and to try to build a more perfect union. That and that alone is what makes America so great - not the economy, not the head of state, not the geography or the baseball or the invention of the hot dog or the waffle cone. Those are icing on the cake, but the heart of the matter is our freedom to be who we are, however we want to be, so long as we’re not violating anyone else’s rights to do the exact same thing. To tell someone they should leave because they don’t do something you think they ought to do is counteracting everything our forefathers worked for, and pissing all over the flag and the Constitution and the people who died for this country.
I do not think it is Mercutio’s responsibility to inspire others into service for our country. I do not think it is a big deal if he does not intend to serve in the armed forces. You can support America without taking up arms, and you can support America without selling out your personal beliefs. And the reason you can do this is because it is America, and we are allowed the liberty to support it as we please. I do not think it is any less patriotic of him to disagree with the Pledge of Allegiance than it is for someone else to agree with it.
I personally would stand, though not say the Pledge. Mercutio prefers not to stand. Rude? I don’t believe so, I do believe that he has thought through what this country means to him more than some people who just stand because everyone else is standing have done. What this country means to him is far more important to him than conformity, and he is willing to take an unpopular stance because of his devotion to his own beliefs. I honestly can’t see anything wrong with that. It is not his responsibility to worry about how others view our country or how they choose to respect it. It is not his responsibility to encourage them to respect the flag. That is the responsibility and perogative of every individual to decide for themselves what level of “patriotism”* they will display, and it is up to them to discover and develop the beliefs that lead to that display.
[sub]* I put that in quotes because I do not think the only way one can be patriotic is to say the PoA or to sign up for service or plaster flags over every thing they own. I think any private examination of what the country and its liberties and rights mean to a person, and reflection upon that examination, is just as patriotic as painting your car red, white, and blue, and playing pro-American songs.[/sub]
I think i have to say something about the “love it or leave it stance.” I don’t mind if someone doesn’t stand up, or disagrees with one of our countries policies (i disagree with many of them), the thing that ticks me off is that some people can go around disrespecting the country, blatantly, and then abuse their rights to protect themselves. I think punkers are a good example of this, in general. They preach total destruction of this country. I think they would have a different point of veiw if they lived in Africa for a few years. This doesn’t have anything to do with Merc’s post, but whatever.
If you don’t mind Merc, i would like to show a copy of your letter to my history teacher. I’m sure he’d enjoy it.
Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, but what evidence do you have to suport it?
But you see, that is why this thread is titled “Now More Than Ever”. We’re letting our rights be trampled on and infringed left and right. We need to stand up for the rights of all, now more than ever.
Thomas Jefferson once said “When you give up a little liberty for a little safety, in the end you lose both and deserve neither”
Would you be as kind to tell me, and the rest of us, what these alternate reasons are? What I might have to gain in seeing how far I could push a teacher or administration? If this were the case, I would often find myself in trouble.
God forbid someone uses the law to protect themselves and their beliefs. Someone might get the imperssion that that is why they were put there in the first place.
Abuse their rights? Or just use them? That’s what America is about, people can dislike this country and try to move forward to make it a better place for all.
[hijack]
Talk about generalizing. I, too, can be called a “punker” and I think nothing like that. The music I listen to and what is in my heart preaches a move toward making this country better, not destroying it. I protest things that go on in this country, not to ask to clean the slate and start from scratch, but to make what we have, the best nation in the world, even better. I’m sure nobody would go out and say that America is perfect.
ssj_man2k (I hope I got that name right - I’m not reviewing the thread as my computer is a POS that crashes if I dare have more than one window open) - again, if the punkers are acting within the scope of the law, their views - no matter how “disrespectful” or contrary to the idea of solidarity or patriotism they are - are perfectly protected by our Constitution, and perfectly admissable on a purely objective basis. You may not like them, I may not like them (I find anarchy to be a bit juvenile personally, but no need to split atoms here), but they are perfectly allowed, with their given rights, to hold them and voice them, and to act within the scope of the law to promote them.
While they might honestly be happier if they left, that is no reason (in my opinion) to justify the horrid “love it or leave it” argument. The mere basis of that argument is (again, in my opinion) the very thing our forefathers were fighting against when they wrote our Constitution. Though there are many things in that document I may not agree with, I certainly think those men were geniuses.
