How I Convinced My Teacher To Let Me Sit During The Pledge: Now More Than Ever

Personally I’m not really all that interested in your motivations behind not standing for the pledge. And I’d sure hate to see this thread turned into nothing more then talking about the motivations behind your actions. I think the fact that you wrote a letter instead of making a big deal out of it during class shows us that you’re not just about to cause a big stink. It seems to me that the big question is Are your civil liberties being violated by being forced to stand up for the pledge of alligence?

I admit I’m not a lawyer nor am I a Constitutional scholar. I don’t think making you stand is a violation of any of your constitutional rights. And I really haven’t seen you or anyone else present any good arguements for why it is a violation of your rights. I’m sure you’ve got some. So sock it to us!

Marc

Well, last year, there was this kid who wouldn’t stand for the flag salute. I don’t think anyone knew why he didn’t, he never said anything. But my history teacher loves debate, and i’m sure he’d like to see it from the point of veiw you have.

And about the love it or leave it thing, everyone should have at least some respect for the country. For the most part, people are very well taken care of in this country. Poverty here is like the good life in an impoverished 3rd world country. I’m just asking for a little respect, for the little things.

Mercutio, you’re too frelling smart for words. Are you sure you’re not some weird time traveller who is actually like four thousand years old from the far distant future come back assuming a 16-year-old’s body to study us and make us all better?

Or maybe you just hang out here too much.

:wink:

Esprix

What makes you believe that I do not respect this country at all? What makes you think I don’t know how good I have it? I think I’ve already stated about how good I have it in this country.

I wasn’t refering to you. I was just saying that people who don’t have respect, should.

And I quote this link: http://www.earthsystems.org/list/sal-nyc/0022.html

(With marginal spelling fixed and my bolding)

Point. Set. Match.

I think i should quote and paraphrase most of my teachers with this: “When you enter school, you are no longer in a democracy, so you have to do what we say. YOu have no rights as minors.”

That is a really fucked up thing, but it mostly only applies for kids wanting to use the phone and go to the bathroom. I don’t think they make you stand for the salute.

This was a point I wanted to bring about again for a little discussion.

A tiny bit of background, before I say anything else: I am an ex-wife, a daughter, a granddaughter, and a great-granddaughter of American war veterans.

I also refuse to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance, for some of the same reasons as Merc mentioned, and for a few of my own. I do not find it disrespectful to those who served for our country that I do so, because in fighting for our country, you also fight for that which our country is built on—the preservation of our rights as Americans and as human beings. My father and his father both were wounded in battle and awarded Purple Hearts; I personally believe that they took those bullets so that I may be able to live my life freely (as with the rest of you), and to protect my ability to protest (along with all other freedoms guaranteed to us), in my own small way.

What I’d like to know, if you believe that not standing and/or reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is disrespectful to veterans, those who did die for our country, and to the country in general, do you find that citizens of this country are more or less disrespectful when they don’t register to vote (or are registered, yet do not)? What about those who avoid jury duty (except for legitimate reasons)? Those that sit in front of the television and complain about how this country is going down the drain, yet do nothing about it? What about those who stick an American flag on their car antenna and call themselves patriotic, but can’t remember the last time they attended a city council meeting, or wrote a letter to a congressman on an issue they felt strongly about, or even our basic rights outlined in the Bill of Rights? I personally find those things to be far more disrespectful to our country than not standing for a piece of cloth.
Java
Whose offer of adopting Merc still stands

Java, this is almost exactly my point. The things you mention above are all actions one takes which utilizes our civil liberties. That does not automatically demonstrate that it is, in fact, honoring ideals for which soldiers died or people fought for in other, equally important ways (Rosa Parks, for one example).

I can even think that one might hold, “The best way to honor a right is to use that right,” but that would probably lead to a whole number of quandries if applied to real life. So that is basically why I am even participating in this thread (apart from one modest “atta boy”) is to see if Merc would agree with my view that acting on a civil liberty is not necessarily a sign of respect, and to wonder how it is a sign of respect if he still holds that it is.

And to see if there was a pledge he would stand for.

Dang, MGibson; have you been reading the thread?

First: Forced recitation of an oath detracts from both freedom of thought and freedom of religion.

Second: Being forced to stand as a symbol of respect detracts from freedom of thought. If one doesn’t respect something, then ANY display of respect is a lie. Why should anyone be forced to lie in the USA? Note that I am not saying that the someone involved does not respect the country, but rather that the person doesn’t respect the pledge of allegiance, a particular oath.

I could swear we’ve gone over all of this before.

Well it seems you’re right and I’m wrong. But thanks for being nice about it.

Marc

december: I meant to say that Merc’s decision to publicly spurn the Pledge will not encourage her/his classmates to put their personal lives on hold and join the military. Kimstu, are you literally claiming that Merc’s sitting during the Pledge will encourage them to do so?

I doubt it, although I suppose it’s possible that some of his classmates might be so deeply impressed by this concrete example of freedom to dissent that it would inspire them to honor their country by joining up. I suppose it’s possible that some classmates might be similarly inspired if Merc chose instead to recite the Pledge as loud as he could while standing at salute wearing a flag-patterned T-shirt. Neither possibility seems really likely to me.

And both seem entirely irrelevant to the important issues involved. The value of any symbolic patriotic gesture does not depend on its effectiveness in stimulating recruitment for the armed forces. For one thing, AFAICT, there is no current need for such recruitment: the military is doing fine personnel-wise with the men and women who freely choose to join it on the basis of their own personal convictions and career goals. For another, if there is or should be such a need, I’m sure we’ll be able to come up with much more effective and useful incentives than a campaign for Unanimous Pledge Recitation. In the meantime, I think that people should make their choices about Pledge recitation according to the dictates of their own consciences; and if that requires them to overcome conformist peer pressure for the sake of individual freedom of conscience and the right to dissent, then they’re doing us all a favor.

I’m reluctant to wade into this, but I’ve been lurking for so long, I feel like I should get a few posts in while it’s still free. :slight_smile:

Preface: I’m not casting aspersions on anyone’s personality or temperament.

I think the whole issue in many ways boils down to this–

In this country, in myriad ways, you have the right to be antisocial. This means the right to do these things and not be arrested, harrassed, or harmed.

Society, in turn, has the right to reject your company.

Sitting during the Pledge of Allegiance in class, or during the national anthem at a ballgame, is uncontestedly within your rights. It is likely that will change the way your society (teachers, other students, parents of other students) will view you.

That’s the bargain. Your letter was well-written and well-thought out (though see below for nitpick). My reasons for singing the national anthem as loud as I can are equally well-thought out. If you feel that the strength of your convictions are such that it’s worth potentially alienating friends or strangers on a matter of principle * even though it is unquestionably your right to do so *, go ahead.

[nitpick]
I’d lay money that the word “indivisible” in the Pledge is a reference to the Civil War, and a recognition that the Union is indissoluble. I certainly never thought it meant that the people of the US were unanimous about anything.
[/nitpick]

Aris:

That was quite a lame expansion on “love it or leave it.”

First: In this country, the governing document RECOGNIZES one’s rights.

Second: Choosing to avail oneself of those rights is not a choice to being antisocial. It is a choice to stand up (or in this case, to sit for) one’s rights as recognized in the governing document.

Third: There is no provision in the Constitution for chucking people out of the country for following the Constitution.

Availing oneself of the rules set forth in the society’s basic document is 180 degrees away from being antisocial!

The short version: what asrivkin said.

The long version:

So much approbation has been given to Mercutio for his actions in this thread that I feel compelled to register my firm rejection of them as appropriate or respectful. The fact that he is obviously intelligent, reasonable, and well-spoken (and written) does not, in and of itself, make him correct.

First, though: I absolutely, completely, and utterly agree that Merc has the right to do what he did, and applaud his school and teacher for being respectful enough of his political rights to allow it with a minimum of fuss. Similarly, however, I have the right to view his actions as misguided, insulting, and out-and-out wrong, and to lose respect for him as a consequence. I don’t believe that any authority whatsoever should be able to force Merc (or anyone) to stand or to recite the pledge, so please don’t go quoting the Constitution at me in response to this post because it’s irrelevant in this context.

Merc: I will start by saying that I can understand if you do not agree with the pledge of allegiance, and do not wish to pledge allegiance; I still think it’s reprehensible, but we’ll get to that anon. First, however - I find it profoundly insulting that you refuse to stand. To me, standing during a recitation of any sort - US Pledge of Allegiance, Canadian National Anthem, the Lord’s Prayer in a Catholic Church - does not imply agreement with the words being spoken. When I attend an Expos baseball game (and I’ve actually done so, which makes me one of a select few <g>), I stand for the Canadian anthem. Not because I am pledging myself to the Canadian government; obviously, I am not. Rather, I stand because I wish to show respect for the people who are. I am saying: “I acknowledge that this is a matter of deep personal significance to you (the Canadian citizens in the crowd, all 15 of them if it’s the Expos game I mention), and I respect your belief and loyalty to your country even if I do not share it.” In the same way, standing during the U.S. Pledge is a sign of respect for your classmates, who may believe very strongly in its words, and for the untold thousands who have believed enough in those words to fight, die, and work for them.

By not standing, you show disrespect for all of them. You are saying, in effect, “not only do I not agree with the words you are saying, I think you are fools for saying them. I don’t care that this is a matter of significance to you. I don’t care that you care.” That is the very definition of disrespect.

And it doesn’t really matter whether your intent is to show disrespect. It will be perceived as such, and you know it. To use a rough analogy: If I know that a homosexual friend of mine is insulted by the use of the term “gay” (as it happens, I have such a friend) to denote “stupid or pointless,” and I use that term around him, I am being insulting. The fact that my intent is not to insult is irrelevant; I am doing something deliberately that I know will cause hurt feelings, and consequently am being insulting. In the same way, whatever your intent, you are being disrespectful of the beliefs and convictions of your classmates and countrymen, and should be prepared to be treated as such. Not as a hero, because you are not, and not as some groundbreaking civil rights activist, because you are not; just as someone with no consideration for the feelings of those around you.

Right, I know I’m running on here, so I’ll try to keep this last part brief. Many will disagree with me here, but I personally also lose respect for you simply due to your refusal to say the pledge. I don’t find it insulting, in the way I do your refusal to stand; I simply find it pathetic and ungrateful. I believe that most people (and if your personal experiences with the nation have been uniformly horrible - if you are routinely discriminated against, disenfranchised, robbed of your personal freedom - then you are an exception and I duly apologize) who lives in this nation, who reaps the immense benefits thereof, ought to feel allegiance to that nation. I’m not saying you have to, or that I would support any efforts to legally force you to; I’m just saying that I, personally, would not be interested in knowing you.

The bottom line is this: simply exercising one’s rights, for no better reason than because one can, is not being respectful of those rights or of the efforts made to secure them. You sitting in class, refusing to show any respect or allegiance to a nation that, broadly speaking, protects, feeds, and shelters you, is not the equivalent of Rosa Parks exercising her rights. She had a point, and had a moral imperative on her side. You, sir, do not. We show respect for our rights by using them responsibly, in good faith, and for the good.

I apologize if I ran on too long, or if anything in here is better suited for the Pit or another forum. But I feel very strongly that the virtual canonization of the OP for his admittedly courageous but utterly wrongheaded actions shows a depressing lack of understanding about the responsibilities associated with the rights we have in this country.

  • Frank

It is in my mind, a sad thing not to stand for the PoA. While in other countries I always stand when their anthem is played, or when a pledge is said. Only to show respect.
As an atheist I bow my head, or even kneel when in a church for weddings or funerals.

I have a flag pole in my front yard. I have a tattoo of the Bald Eagle and the Flag on my shoulder. I would never dare to (in my opinion) insult the flag which stands for the U.S. by not standing for the PoA.

However, that being said.

It is plainly your right to not stand. I would never think to try to force someone to do so. Please, for one minute though, think about how great this country really is. Yes, we have many problems. Yes, we’ve done some things not to be proud of, but, we’ve done many great things.

I for one think every day how lucky I am to have been born in this country and to have the oppotunities that come with that.

That is just my two cents worth…

I agree all the way. I think I may have rambled in my last post, and just wanted to say thanks for saying it.
About my two cents worth…It may decrease in value and is not FDIC insured

I’ll assume this was directed at my post-- I think I’ve got the closest username to “Aris”.

Choosing to avail oneself of one’s rights is neither social or antisocial in and of itself. And I’m not putting a value judgment either on the choice to stand or sit, or on society’s response. The constitutional questions are really moot here, since I think everyone agrees that there is a right to sit through the Pledge.

The only debate that exists, in my mind, is how society * should * view this. Actions have consequences. It’s perfectly legal to rent X-rated movies (in most US jurisdictions), but if you do so at the same counter as the local minister is renting “Field of Dreams”, he may revise his opinion of you. And if you’re renting “Field of Dreams” and he’s renting the X-rated movies, you may revise your opinion of him. Or you may not. That’s the only point.

Sitting through the Pledge of Allegiance * may* cause people to think differently of you. They can’t beat you, force you to stand, or fire you. They may stop inviting you over for Monday Night Football, stop dancing with you at parties, stop thinking you’re “cool”. Or, they may start doing those things. You may explain your point of view, and they may still think you’re wrong.

And that’s their right just as much as it’s your right to sit.

I never said there was. This must have been directed at someone else.

Many of the provisions in the Bill of Rights are, in my opinion, designed to protect antisocial behavior. Over time, some previously unacceptable behavior (worshipping the “wrong” God, being a woman/minority who wanted a college education or equal treatment, etc.) has become acceptable, and the reverse has also been true (slaveholding, out and out racism, wifebeating, etc. have now become unacceptable).

Balancing one’s principles with the desire to be part of society is something everyone has to do for themselves. And there will be as many different balancing points as there are people.

storyteller: But I feel very strongly that the virtual canonization of the OP for his admittedly courageous but utterly wrongheaded actions shows a depressing lack of understanding about the responsibilities associated with the rights we have in this country.

This is the kind of attitude that rather worries me. I don’t fault you at all for feeling that Merc’s refusal to stand for the Pledge is disrespectful or insulting. I don’t happen to agree with you, but I know that these symbolic gestures have a lot of shades of gray in them. One person’s polite abstention is another person’s disrespectful rejection, and we have to be aware that people are going to have different opinions about such things. And if some people think less of Merc on this account, well, he’s just going to have to accept that.

But it’s rather startling to hear you talking about this in terms of the “responsibilities associated with the rights we have in this country.” Um, no, performing symbolic gestures of patriotism is not a citizen’s responsibility. If Merc were cheating on his taxes, or trying to repress the free expression of other people who disagreed with him, or damaging public property, etc. etc. etc., I would be outraged right along with you that he should think himself entitled to the rights of a citizen when he won’t accept the accompanying responsibilities.

However, I think it’s wholly unjustified, and even potentially dangerous, to talk about mere ceremonial observances as some kind of patriotic duty. It kind of smacks of the requirements in the old Soviet Union about people having to put out flags or attend parades on national holidays. Oh no, there aren’t any legal regulations to that effect, comrade, but if you neglect to participate in this voluntary and spontaneous expression of patriotism and civic spirit, why then there may be some people who won’t be too pleased with you.

A free society should not set up official rituals that are supposedly for the voluntary expression of one’s personal patriotism, and then exert pressure—legally or otherwise—to punish dissenters for spoiling the desired effect of unanimity. If Mercutio’s school, or state legislature, doesn’t like having students exercise their undeniable right not to participate in the Pledge, maybe it should think a little harder about why it is even bothering to impose this ritual on students at all.

Whoops, no, I definitely was unclear. I do not believe that reciting the pledge of allegiance is neccessarily one of the responsibilities to which I refer in the last line of my post. I am speaking in a more broad fashion: that with every right comes an essential responsibility to use that right intelligently and to a purpose; that to simply exercise a right just to prove that you can is an insult to the existence of the right.

I do think that the decision NOT to recite the pledge, absent a reason that is compelling, is a poor decision. Again, I don’t want to throw Merc in jail for that poor decision, or beat him up, or spit on him or call him at home and harass him with insulting names. I just wouldn’t likely associate with him on a friendly level, largely because I do not respect his decision (or, more precisely, I do not respect the reasons behind it).

Sorry for the confusion.

  • Frank