Oh. Okeydoke.
Actually, no.
First, I’m not willing to accept what is or isn’t law based on what an unknown person from an unknown, non legal, message board says. Especially one who cannot provide case citations or even a case name to accompany what may only be his recollections in a misspelled post.
But, doing some searching, I found what I believe to be the case this person is referencing. West Virginia State Board of Ed. v. Barnette which was decided in 1943, not the '70s.
Abstract: http://oyez.nwu.edu/cases/cases.cgi?command=show&case_id=426&page=abstract
In it, the court, in a 6-3 decision overturned Minersville School District v. Gobitis decided in 1940. They determined that compelling public school children to salute the flag was unconstitutional. But it makes no mention of the constitutionality or unconstitutionality of being compelled to just stand silently. This is not a trivial distinction!
Your case hinges on that point and I can’t find a reference within Supreme Court decisions to support the contention made by that poster on the other message board or you.
Kimstu, can you support your POV? Is it more than your own personal feeling? My impression is that it’s quite common to encounter an expectation that people will participate in certain ceremonies.
E.g., schools and summer camps I’ve attended have considered it a duty to participate in various ceremonies, pledge of allegiance, saluting the flag, singing the camp song, etc. I would bet that schools in other countries also include rituals that students are expected to participate in.
Obviously, religious organizations expect participation in rituals. My secular wedding expected the guests to participate in certain aspects of the ceremony; not to do so would have been regarded as offensive. The Boy Scouts have their famous oath. Medical Schools expect their students to recite the Hippocratic Oath. When I go to the theatre, I’m expected to applaud. I don’t have to, but it would be churlish to refrain simply because I was opposed to applause on principle. Even if the performance stunk, one might be expected to applaud the effort.
Kimstu, you argued cleverly by using the USSR as an example. But, I think examples of ceremonial duties can be found in most countries, not just totalitarian ones.
Actually, yes.
A quote from this site clarifies West Virginia State Board of Education v Barnette: http://www.aclu-wa.org/issues/students/PledgeLetter.html
This comes from a problem resolved the students of Mark Morris High School with the administration of the school, with the help of the ACLU-WA (Washington). The students did not want to stand for the pledge and the school was forcing them to.
Bolding mine.
Doing all of these would truly make a poor American. But, then again, these are all optional. Most of these end in a way that affect everyone. My not standing affects no one but muself, not the public at large. That and I was being penalized for it. Is ignoring something that could end in a positive way for everyone disrespectful? Of course. Is choosing to quietly protest an act that makes no change in the public life disrespectful? I don’t seem to think so, others surely disagree.
Thanks for the words in my mouth. What I am saying is “I do not agree with the words and refuse to stand for it, but I still respect your decision to stand and receit the pledge for whatever reasons you hold it close to you and show that by not trying to stop anyone from doing so”
This doesn’t hurt anyone’s feelings, though. If someone is so repulsed by this that they don’t want to know me or be my friend, good. I don’t need any narrow minded friends around me.
I’m being respectful of their beliefs and convictions by letting them go on with tehm and not interfering with them. If I were to try to stop them from syaing it, be it verbally or physically it would be a different sotry. Much like they respect my choice to sit, I respect their choice to stand.
I never said I should get my own day devoted to me. I have taken consideration for the feelings of those around me and rather than make it a class event, I took it straight to the teacher, made my case and now sit quietly. I’m not stopping anyone from doing anything did didn’t do before or hurting any of my classmate’s feelings.
I do believe that I pointed out that I have an objection to the pledge, not that I’m just very lazy and could give a rats ass about this country.
december: Kimstu, can you support your POV? Is it more than your own personal feeling? My impression is that it’s quite common to encounter an expectation that people will participate in certain ceremonies.
Sure, there are all sorts of expectations of participation in all sorts of ceremonies. That’s what culture (in the anthropological sense) is all about. My objection was simply to the expectation that participation in ceremonial observances should be treated as “the duty of a citizen”. Since storyteller explained to me that that’s not what s/he meant, I got no more beef.
Mercutio, thanks for the link.
Well, that certainly is a legal authority who supports your contention. Perhaps I’m in error for my original statement. Or perhaps I’m not.
I don’t mean to belabor the point, but it is an important one. The distinction between being allowed to not recite the pledge and being allowed to not stand up during the pledge is great. As far as I know, the original Supreme Court case did NOT make that distinction. I clearly could be wrong on this point, because I merely skimmed the ruling, I didn’t read it. Those Justices are extremely long winded at times.
Anyway, Julya Hampton certainly didn’t get to where she is without knowing the law. But it’s not a huge secret that the ACLU is just a tad biased towards interpreting the law in favor of preserving civil liberties. And that’s what she may very well be doing. Ms. Hampton’s response would no doubt convince your teacher if he or she were still waivering on the issue. But Ms. Hampton’s opinion isn’t law.
Unless that S. Ct. case explained it, or a subsequent case distinguised it, we have no idea what the true law is. The best I can say is that your argument sounds logical, but we’ll never be sure until a court rules on it.
In the end, though, it doesn’t really matter, does it? You get to sit down for the pledge regardless. Case closed.
Hmmm…
Ignore this if you wish.
Here in the UK we have all the democratic freedoms you have, like you we also fought to protect those freedoms but we all find it a bit scary that you make your children recite a pledge of allegiance every day.
If your people agree with what your country stands for then they will defend it, if they don’t then they won’t.
Making them recite propagandist pledges won’t make any difference.
Either the people are with you or they’re not.
And if they’re not then all the pledges in the world won’t make any difference.
We’ve been a nation state for a long, long time but we don’t pledge allegiance to the queen or the country, unless we join the armed forces. Its just kinda taken for granted.
Some of us do not believe that there is an obligation to “serve your country”. I disagree with JFK on this point. I see no reason why I should ask what I can do for my country, and every reason to ask what my country can do for me. After all, it’s supposed to be my country; it belongs to me, not me to it.
“Absent any reason that is compelling?” WTF? The reason an individual chooses to stand or not stand, to recite or not recite any oath is nobody’s business other than that person’s. Freedom of though also means freedom to not have to justify your thoughts.
Jojo: You really hit the nail on the head. Good job.
Kelly, so should everyone just sit back and never serve their country and just wait for the “country” to wait on them hand and foot.
You do not OWN anything other than the fact that you are a PART of it and have a say. Everyone has a responsibility to do their part to help the country because by doing so they help themselves. That being said, no one has a responsibility to do more than their fair share either.
Monty -
I’m going to write more tomorrow, when I more awake, but I have to say I disagree with what you’re saying. Sure, there’s no way to force Merc (or anyone) to come up with a justification for his actions… but if you take an action that is offensive to me, and refuse to provide a compelling reason for it, then I will cheerfully exercise my freedom of thought, and think of you as a shmuck.
That’s really all I’m saying here. That if you decide to take an action that is hurtful (and yes, Merc, your action does hurt feelings, if not in the exact same fashion as my “gay” example above), refuse to justify it and refuse to consider its effect on others, then some of those others are going to lose considerable respect for you.
We are not required to justify our actions, but in order to maintain the respect of others, it is sometimes advisable.
- Frank
Mercutio
You’ve been asked several times in this thread just what you would want in a POA. I don’t believe you’ve responded, or if you did, I missed you answer.
I have two hypothetical questions:
[ul]
[li]If the teacher asked the whole class to sit and recite the POA. What would you do then?[/li][li]If the teacher asked the whole class to sit and observe a moment of silence. What would you do then?[/li][/ul]
Have a good day.
A short history of The Pledge.
How many times do I have to turn your head to the OP? There! Look! There’s tons of reasons why I object to saying the pledge. Whether or not those reasons are compelling to you or not does not matter because they are my beliefs.
And like I said, I have considered the effect it may have on others (even though it shouldn’t matter what effect it has on other) and I have found that if something as miniscule as this bothers you, you’re not worth my time. Just because I don’t honor America one way, does not mean I would not honor it in another way.
In response to erislover: I’d stand up and sing along to My Country Tis Of Thee everyday
Oh, for the love of…
I said in my OP that I pledge allegiance to no one. Not a cross, not a flag. Here, I’ll quote it for you:
Got it? Good.
Also, it is not a matter that I am too lazy to move my sorry behind from my seat. Sitting down and pledging allegiance would still go against my beliefs.
I would, however, sit and observe a moment of silence. No harm in that for me.
Not quite:
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
[ /nitpick ]
I really shouldn’t trust my friends…
Thanks for the clear up, tom.
If it’s a matter of harm, I don’t see any harm in standing for 15 seconds.
Precisely why I said “for me”.