Then you are willfully blind to the whole denial of freedom involved. Kind of odd that, given your UserID here.
That, or I don’t see how asking someone to stand for 15 seconds – and expecting them to comply if for no other reason than for the hell of it – denies freedom.
Mercutio
Hi again. OK, OK, I believe you. You don’t really dig the POA.
Do you have anything that guides you.
F’rinstance, why did you make a point of sitting down for the POA at your school?
Why did you post the letter you wrote at SDMB?
Methinks it’s for attention!
Most people, you see, whether they acknowlege it or not, have some kind of shall we say, guiding principles. I don’t see any such principles stated by you. I do, however, see a lot of complaints about the way the country is going. I don’t think anyone would argue with you about some of those problems.
Enjoy, Mercutio, the protesting you do now. You’re in high school now, a rather idyllic time, where you can fight those tough battles and go home where you can sleep and eat.
The day is coming, however, as my sainted mother once said: “You’ll finally learn the price of toilet paper.”
Be. Cause. It. Goes. A. Gainst. My. Be. Leifs.
Shall I draw a diagram? This isn’t anything recent, it’s been this way for several years. It’s only been in the last school year and this one that I’ve been faced with being forced to stand up.
Because in this time of when America is running away with jingoism and patriotism so blinding that we allow our privacy to be eaten away at, we need to remind people that we do have rights. Hence the title, “Now More Than Ever”. Now more than ever do we have to stand up for our rights.
I hardly believe that this thread is a whine fest on my part. I do think when it comes to stating how good this country is or how bad this country is, I’ve spoken more about how good it is. Though, I do agree that I have pointed out that this country still needs some work. I don’t see how you can’t have both.
Although I agree with Merc for the most part, I would like to point out that being a minor (in CA, I don’t know about other states) means you don’t have all those rights and liberties you’re fighting for.
I would bet it’s rare in western democratic countries, though it seems to me there’s something similar in Japan.
Here (France), if a teacher was to ask his students to recite a POA, they’d most certainly look at him in bewilderment, wondering if the government has been overthrown and replaced by a dictature over the night. The point of view of the average citizen on such a thing is radically different. In other word the way one’s perceive such a pledge is mostly dictaded by cultural habbits.
I didn’t intend to participate in this american thread, but reading this comment it seemed important to me to put the things into perspective. And since I’m at it I would add that though I’m not convinced that the OP’s motivations are the ones he exposed, I’d fully support his position as a stance against not well thought conformism.
But as I wrote, my position is strongly influenced by my own cultural bias, which give me a very negative view about an official and regulated display of allegiance to a flag, a country or whatever else…
Merc, interesting. Thank you for the response.
Thanks, clairobscur. I appreciate getting information about other cultures.
I know littel about French schooling. Most of what I know came from the children’s book Madeline:
“In an old house in Paris that was covered in vines
lived twelve little girls in two straight lines.” etc.
Ok, at this point several things are clear:
-
Merc is a well-meaning, brighter-than-average kid.
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Merc is a self-absorbed pain in the ass.
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Merc will mature into a well-meaning non-pain-in-the-ass adult.
-
This thread ran its course somewhere about 1.5 pages ago.
I’ll certainly agree with number 4.
True, being a minor is Cali does pretty much mean having all your rights stripped away. Guess i’ll be waiting that 2 years till i turn 18, although im probably more mature and smarter than alot of 18 year olds now.
Merc,
I agree with everything brought forth in this thread reguarding your right to sit during the PoA. I believe that you do this as a sincere reflection of your own personal beliefs. I have no qualms or beef with you for doing so.
But consider this.
If I didn’t know you, and saw you sitting during the PoA or the National Anthem, I would interpet this act as a sign of disrespect. I think many others would too. You have quite clearly stated why it is not, for you, but I’m telling you how it looks to some other people. Now, what you do with this knowledge is up to you, but you might want to factor it into your thinking. MHO only, standing out of respect for others while refraining from saying a pledge you don’t believe is the propper course of action. As always, YMMV.
I’m also going to weigh in here on the side of “yes it’s completely within Mercutio’s rights to not stand, but no I don’t think it’s a good idea.”
I think at a certain level the literal meaning of the words of the pledge of allegiance become less important than the symbolic meaning of standing for the pledge. I think the OPer exagerates the divisiveness and offensivenesss of the pledge. Yes, the “under god” part does bother me too and I choose not to say it when I recite the pledge (or when I was in school, anyway I didn’t). But I don’t then say to everyone, “Hey I didn’t say ‘under God’! I didn’t say ‘under God’!” and call to attention my excercise of my rights. The OPer is engaging in a fairly petty excercise of his rights, making a proverbial mountain out of a molehill.
If anyone wants I can start my own thread about my own battle for first amendment rights when I was younger, but otherwise I will just advise the OPer that you have to pick your fights, and reciting the pledge may be something you should just let go by.
To the last two posters:
Did you not notice where Merc said that standing for the thing is against his beliefs? What difference does it make how it appears to others? Heck, it appears to some Jews and Muslims that Christians are polytheists but does that mean that the Christians should quit believing in Christ’s divinity?
It is against his belief that indicating any respect for the words of the pledge or the act of reciting the thing is wrong. To stand out of respect would be signifying respect that he feels is opposite to his beliefs.
Now, personally, I really don’t have any problems with the words of the pledge myself in a completely voluntary thing, other than the “allegiance to the flag” meaning allegiance to a piece of cloth. To me that’s a crock. However, a forced recitation, or a forced respect, is no respect whatsoever.
Hey, Monty, did you not read my post? All I said was “be aware of how others are prolly going to view the act of sitting thru the PoA.” I personally will prolly be standing silently. I say it occasionally, but I dislike the entire idea of the PoA, it’s smacks too much of something from a totalitarian government for me to be comfortable with reciting it.
Merc, I think leveling the accusation of jingoism against people who want to say the pledge is a bit over-the-top, myself. There are few things that move me more than the PoA when preformed near a nicely displayed flag.
But I guess that is because I am not honoring the country as it stands today (or as it ever stood, for that matter), but for the ideals I feel are embodied in the Constitution (more specifically, the BoR, but whatever) and the worldview of the Founding Fathers, who seemed to have quite a few things in common with yours truly. Not everything, but enough to get me to take notice.
I would say the Pledge specifically in memory of the revolutionary war and forget the rest of history, actually. Those were some great men. I would feel inconsistent if I espoused so many of the ideals that they stood for and yet refused to honor them.
Merc -
Listen, dude, I get it. I understand. The Pledge is against your beliefs. My first point (actually, my second chronologically) is that I do not respect those beliefs. The mere fact that they are your beliefs does not render them invulnerable to question; if you believed that women were property who shouldn’t be allowed to speak, I would similarly think you were wrong and obnoxious. As before, I wouldn’t want to prevent you from having them, I would simply feel that those beliefs were an unpleasant reflection of your character. Sometimes, unpopular beliefs are unpopular because they are bad beliefs, not merely because people are sheep.
Anyway, if you don’t believe in the words of the Pledge of Allegiance, don’t say them. I can’t force you, and wouldn’t wish to force you, though I can and do wonder why you feel no allegiance to a nation that has done - I am assuming here, so stop me if I’m wrong - more good than harm, to you at least. You remind me a bit of the 16-year old kid who, despite being clothed and loved and provided for, spitefully announces to the world that he hates his parents because they won’t buy him a new computer.
But the fact that you refuse to stand is, in my opinion, indefensibly disrespectful. You are entitled to disagree, but I would imagine that a good number of people who ARE standing to say the Pledge, who have deep emotional ties to their country and would like to have those ties acknowledged, would feel the same as I do. At some point, when what you do offends enough people, you have to start thinking, “maybe it’s not everyone else; maybe it’s me.”
I’m respectfully bowing out of this thread now, because I’m getting angry and there’s no way I’m going to keep my cool well enough for my responses to be appropriate in this forum.
- Frank
I’ve seen a lot of comments along the lines of, “I acknowledge your right to do this, but I feel it’s wrong/disrespectful/etc.” in this thread, and I believe Mercutio has done a fine job of justifying his beliefs. A more recent trend has been, “I acknowledge your right to do this, and even agree with you (somewhat), but I still do it myself to be respectful.”
I have to wonder why, then, if some of you have problems (in whole or in part) with the phrasing and meaning behind the PoA, that you continue to participate, in whole or in part. In fact, it’s a bit confusing why some who have no problems with the PoA encourage Mercutio so strongly to participate. You’ve all acknowledged it’s a deeply rooted social convention at this point. In fact, I believe it has nearly as much legislative foundation as the National Anthem. And yet I can’t accept this alone as a reason to promote it.
Even today, some people feel the Star Spangled Banner is not the perfect National Anthem we could have, and lobby their congressmen and other elected officials to replace it (I understand “America the Beautiful” is the popular contender). If you’re concerned about the social repercussions Mercutio might face, but you agree with his stance (even in part), then realize that by standing or reciting the pledge yourself is contributing to the social popularity which you fear could harm him (our yourselves).
For those of you who disagree with Mercutio, I’d like you to consider that his ideas, while unpopular with you, are (in his heart) intended for the betterment of this country. I believe he’s got a firm grasp of the idea that his actions may be unpopular, and very likely misinterpreted (even by some fellow posters here). Massive public opinion seems unlikely to sway this. Just consider, if you would, the strentgh needed to stand up for unpopular opinions you feel to be right in order to make you country a better place.
inkblot, who is currently undecided on the PoA
Posted by storyteller0910:
That’s the way I feel also.
I do want to make a parting shot, so to speak.
Mercutio, I respectfully doubt that you will feel this way 5 or 10 years from now. You are young, and, I assume living at home. When push comes to shove, when the rubber meets the road, when you have to put your money where you mouth is, you’re views will probably change.
Have a nice day.
PV
I did read your post, WD. That is not all you said. You also said:
Now, it’s patently obvious, given that Merc already told us, that standing for any reason during the recitation violates his belief.
To those who want him (her?) to stand out of respect for others: why should he not respect his own beliefs?
To the last poster: “Push come to shove?” It already has. He was threatened with disciplinary action for not being one of the sheep…er, complying with the teacher’s expectations that everyone stands up for a mass orgy of patriotic display.
I, for one, hope that Merc still feels this way in 5, 10, or even 40 years from now.
Out of idle curiosity though, [sarcastic query]how did the country get along without the pledge of allegiance for so long?[/sarcastic query]
The pledge of allegiance, from what I can tell, has nothing to do with instilling patriotism per se in the citizenry, but rather with being a way to identify the “good citizens” from the “bad citizens.”