Are you being willfully ignorant here? I did not suggest that Merc stand to support the PoA in any way. I suggested that it is the polite, courteous and respectful thing to do to stand out of respect for those who are reciting the pledge. I personally stand quietly when the PoA is being recited, bow my head when someone is praying and come to my feet at an Orioles/Blue Jays game when “Oh Canada” is played. I don’t believe in any of these things, but I show consideration for those who do and respect for their beliefs. Sitting just because I can in those circumstances is simply rude, again, only MHO.
I think it won’t take anything short of a good ass-kicking to teach this snot-nosed kid some respect.
I find that often on these boards, and more often IRL, older posters believe that anyone who is liberal, or wont stand for the pledge etc., will all of a sudden change their views as soon as they ‘learn the price of toilet paper.’
In my case, being out in ‘the real world’ has made my beliefs stronger. I stick up for civil libirties and civil rights more now, because I have seen them abused. I believe now more than ever that people should take a larger role in government, after the first election I was allowed to vote in was the mess last november. I dont believe that everyone under the age of x is just a flighty fool who will suddenly conform to some standard as soon as they have to pay their own rent. I think older folks here and IRL should give teenagers and college kids and twentysomethings a little more credit.
For the record, I tend to stand and sit and kneel as ‘required’ because thats the way I am. I dont believe, however, that not standing or sitting or kneeling is disrespectful.
peace,
JB
I think someone needs to beat the ignorance out of you.
Well, i’ve been reading these last posts, i’m starting to side with Merc more and more. Just because he beleives something unpopular doesn’t mean they are bad, that’s just what he beleives. It’s not harming anyone, so what’s the harm in not making him stand?
And who gives a damn how other people view him? Let them be ignorant and stupid and not consider all the options. If someone wants to stand by their beleifs (no pun intended), then let them do that. Judging and criticizing are the fools way out.
to quote inkBlot:
True. He has stated his beliefs very eloquently, but makes the common mistake in thinking that because it is his belief, it is automatically right and inviolate. He posts his letter, states his view, and then refuses to accept any criticism or comment which would imply that some people might feel differently.
Mercutio, you’re a bright kid, a good writer and a clever logician. However, you will run into people cleverer than you at some point, and there are some things that are more important than being smart, or even being right. Truth is slipperier than an eel in a barrel of snot, and just because YOU believe something doesn’t make it so.
As others have said, pick your fights; There’ll be plenty more to come.
I would also strongly urge you (and everyone, for that matter) to spend some time out of the country. Not the summer-trip-to-France-before-college thing; I’m talking some truly squalid, under-developed shithole where people are too busy trying to keep themselves fed and reasonable healthy to worry about small potatos like saying the pledge of allegiance. It will do wonders for your world view and make you a better person. I say this sincerely, as one who has done so.
Lastly, I would also suggest that you acquire a taste for crow. Everyone eats a peck of dirt in their lifetime, and you might as well get used to the taste.
No, I am recognizing and supporting the free exercise of a belief. Something, last I checked, supported by the Constitution. I do believe there’s a particular Republic on the planet which uses that particular docuement as a basis.
Really? Then why should he stand? It’s against his belief to be indicating any symbol of respect during an act he doesn’t respect.
And yet if it’s against his beliefs to indicate, in any manner, respect for something he doesn’t respect, that would be denying a particular right, now wouldn’t it?
Same here, because I actually agree with all but two things in the pledge.
Since I also believe in a deity, I choose that time to pray to my deity. When I am visiting with friends who happen to be Muslim, during their prayer times, I sit quietly in the room and pray myself. Those who don’t believe in deity just sit quietly. You see, we do what we can to not interrupt the activity. I fail to see how sitting quietly interrupts the activity of the reciting of the pledge. That is, unless the mob demands every automaton not think and just works in lock-step.
Well, yeah. That’s because it’s good baseball and semi-good music! 
Actually, sitting quietly, as Merc says he does, is not rude. It’s being polite and respecting the choice of others to participate. Rude would be standing up and yanking the flag down or shouting or the like.
First off, congrats to Merc for doing a man’s job at a boy’s age and all that by writing the letter to begin with. You weren’t the first to do it and you won’t be the last (I hope), but I’ve seen it done less eloquantly, that’s for sure.
Since I don’t believe he ever got around to writing a pledge, I came up with a (truly rubbish) one quickly to hold off the dogs:
I pledge allegiance to myself and those that would think like me; and as for the Republic, as it now stands–a nation, fearing God, Puritanical, whose ideals are buried under patriotic propoganda–um, thanks for the passport?
Okay, so I really struggled at the ending, sue me. If I had said that when I was in high school somebody probably would have. No, I don’t really mean that I have no love for America–but most of the things I am grateful for in regards to my American birth would have been there had I been born in most other Western nations. So I am more grateful for not being raised in a third world dictatorship than anything else.
So I say what young Merc might be afraid/too young/too diplomatic to: I am not a patriot, and I generally think less of people that are, be they Americans or from other countries. I do like freedom and humanitarian ideals–I am sure that some here will find this all to be contradictory (and badly written, but that’s because I’m rushing off to lunch), but it ain’t, Bubba, it ain’t.
This is an interesting thread.
I am of mixed feelings in how to respond. My first notion is to say that I had similar problems with the pledge in school. I thought the words “under god” were not necessary and offensive.
I was a typical youth who was more concerned with my rights than appreciative of my responsibilities. As I have become older I no longer refuse to bow my head during group prayers or make an obvious point to exclude “under god” from the pledge. I have found that I can keep my principals sound, and to my self with out being rude to others. One of the greatest losses to our daily lives is the lack of common courtesy, respect and politeness. Everyone is of the opinion they are “Special” and the rules of politeness or courtesy do not apply to them. I am a firm believer in picking my fights and the fact you were not required to say the pledge a victory, but the failure to stand is simply impolite. Obviously you are a very gifted young man and I shared many of your ideas and behavior, but I believe time will temper your opinion and priorities.
Thanks for one of the most interesting threads I have had the pleasure of reading.
I see now why Merc gets frustrated with the issue. Mr. Peabody certainly missed the entire point.
You mean like El Salavador? Where my dad fled from, where I go to visit often and am met by the truly sad sights. People living off of beans and rice, meat few and far between. Living off what they farm and what grows on their small plot of land. Dirt roads with the stray pig or dog or cow right in the middle of them.
You mean a place like that?
Yes, there are more important things than having the right to sit down. Like life, family, food, shelter, water. Does that mean that rights aren’t important at all?
Histrionics aside, sure, El Salvador would be fine.
Whose histrionics, bizz; Merc’s or yours?
Monty, I understand the point and agree with many of the ideals but luckily I also have the right to disagree with the actions or behavior.
Monty:
Sorry I wasn’t clear;I meant Merc’s.
Bizz: You were being clear. 'Twas I who was being snide–and that was to make a point.
MrPeabody: So what you’re saying is that you don’t want your behaviour forced, er regulated; however, you do want Merc’s to be regulated. Gotcha. Luckily, as Merc wrote to his teach, that’s not the way it goes here.
Monty
No, that’s not what I am saying. We all make our choices. The great thing about our county is we can all chose to go to heck in our own hand basket, so to speak. We even have the right to be rude or inconsiderate. I just wish fewer of us made that choice.
But Merc’s not being rude or incosiderate. Quite the opposite.
Well, Merc, if you want to stand on principle, you’re going to have to be consistent.
My country, Tis of thee,
Sweet land of liberty,
Well, no, you don’t believe this. Quoting from the original post, “Now, I will take out “with liberty and justice for all.” because apparently that is not the case.”
Of thee I sing.
Land where my fathers died!
Not technically true.
Land of the Pilgrim’s pride!
I’ll let a Native American address this one.
From every mountain side,
Let freedom ring!
I’m not sure if you’re drawing a distinction between liberty and freedom, but we’ll let that pass.
My native country, thee,
Land of the noble free,
Thy name I love.
I love thy rocks and rills,
Thy woods and templed hills;
My heart with rapture fills
Like that above.
A troubling religious reference.
**Let music swell the breeze,
And ring from all the trees
Sweet freedom’s song. **
There’s that F word again!
Let mortal tongues awake;
Let all that breathe partake;
Let rocks their silence break,
The sound prolong.
Our father’s God to Thee,
Oh, My! “I do not see why anyone should force me to respect an establishment of religion, so we will take “under God” out.”
Author of liberty,
A double! A religious reference to liberty, all in one line!
To Thee we sing.
Long may our land be bright
With freedom’s holy light;
Protect us by Thy might,
Great God, our King!
My goodness! There are major religions that have fewer references to God in their professions faith than this stanza does!
You can’t possibly sing this, Merc!
Seriously, though, Merc I agree you have a principled position. I will publicly defend your right to take that position. And I think you’re wrong.
You’re wrong because, in your own words, “I will not pledge allegiance to a flag nor will I pledge allegiance to republic.” It sounds very much as if you’re saying, “I have rights and liberties and I’ll exercise those rights and liberties. But I’m not in this for the long haul. If I see a better deal somewhere else, I’m outa here!”
The United States is not a giant free civil liberties buffet. It’s more like a potluck. Everyone has to contribute or the party’s over. And that means that people do pledge allegiance to the republic and they strive to make it a better place.
That’s why you’re wrong about this country not being indivisble. You see the backbiting and the party politics and the bickering and assume that that proves your point. It’s the very fact that we are fundamentally indivisible that allows us to squabble so freely because we know what’s really important.
Other posters have alluded to it, but I’ll re-iterate. You treat the pledge like a recitation of facts. It isn’t America isn’t just a place or a government, its an ideal. It’s a dream of one nation, united in a quest for justice and liberty, dedicated to the proposition of fairness and the proposition of equality for all. Though we reach and fall short, it is the ideal, the knowing what we should and could be as a nation that makes us strive to be better than we are. When you pledge allegiance to the republic, that’s what you’re pledging to.
Some of our greatest American patriots have been those who America has treated worst. Despite that, these people were dedicated to the republic because they saw America not how it was, but how it could be. At great personal cost and often against bitter odds, they fought to save the republic from itself and force it to move that much closer to fulfilling its promise.
**I say to you today, my friends, that in spite of the difficulties and frustrations of the moment, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal.”
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.
I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
This will be the day when all of God’s children will be able to sing with a new meaning, “My country, 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim’s pride, from every mountainside, let freedom ring.”
When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God’s children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, “Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!”**
Martin Luther King didn’t recite the Pledge of Allegiance, he lived it. And that’s good enough for me.
Someone who simply stands out of respect for others would be like that. In Mercuito’s letter he fights for what he believes the civil rights in this country stands for.
It seems to me that Mercuio’s actions fit that ideal of patriotism better than pledging allegiance.
Where do you get this from? Based on this thread I think that the pledge of allegiance has more meaning as a way for people who don’t believe in those ideals to claim that the ones fighting for those ideals are unpatriotic. Certainly that was the case when McCarthy proposed the addition under god to the pledge. Its also the case when someone claims a person is unpatrotic based solely on their refusal to pledge allegiance.
Mercutio, you’re clearly a sharp person and a good debator, but please don’t believe that your action in any way is a demonstration of patriotism as you seem to think. Webster defines a patriot as “one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests”, and the pledge is a declaration of loyalty to that authority.
Our country gives extra rights to the disagree-er, but don’t assume that this makes a disagree-er more patriotic than the agree-er. Disagreeing because the majority is wrong and their direction must be changed is admirable. Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing does not hold the same moral ground. Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing is an action specifically taken to break cohesion and unity, and (in themselves) these are very distasteful goals.
Bear in mind that this country also gives extra rights to criminals, but being a criminal doesn’t make you more patriotic.
In fairness, I should note that at your age I refused to make the pledge as well.