Nice try. I voted Libertarian in the last election, about as far from Communism as you’ll find. Try again, Gen. Westmoreland.
Red-baiting was stale nearly half a century ago, and it’s even more stale today. I am therefore not surprised that you find it appealing.
Things don’t deserve respect just because you assert they do. I know you seem to have a hard time not arguing in circles (see your “Black History” thread) but really, trust me on this one.
I do? Since when?
Symbols are just symbols. I’ll take the real deal any day.
It was just such a comically, obstinately specific number – Me and My 246 Million Patriotic Buddies! – that it begged mockery. As do you and your silly, “Me and the flag–we’re like thisclose” diatribes. Another groundless assertion–because you say that the flag=you doesn’t make it so.
:rolleyes:
Wow, with the personal insults, no less. Running out of arguments? Whoops–you didn’t have any to begin with! I forgot!
I also think it’s hilarious – nay, hysterical – that you would, on the one hand, call someone a “commie,” and on the other, try to use “autonomous” as an insult. Woo-wee! Neverending fun on “Twentyeight and the Jingo Gang!”
Whatever.
Is all this supposed to, you know, mean something? Maybe have a point, or something? I mean, I cannot make heads or tails of it, except to see it as a broad attempt to insult the population of the SDMB. You sure seem to have an awful lot of suspicions about everyone–you and your Feb. 2001 registration and your low post count.
{snip additional blather}
Boy, these long diatribes, circular arguments, complete dismissal of all points contrary to your thesis, thinly veiled racism, freakishly outdated jingoism . . . it all seems so eerily familiar . . .
What would I have to gain? Self-esteem? Do you believe that I could really not go about my day without having my fix of compliments? Originally this was posted in MPSIMS because I felt that I had made a moral victory. What personal victory would I gain? This was not a matter off me going up to my teacher and giving her a rapsberry in her face, this was a matter of me doing reasearch to back up my statements in a letter I wrote to her. My teacher allowed me to sit, my classmates say nothing about it, the SDMB can say whatever they want about it… it’s called the 1st amendment.
If I was as shallow and petty as your run of the mill 15 year old I would have just taken a key to her car and enjoy my “sweet revenge”.
Hopefully you wont resort to more name calling after this but who knows…
Would it kill you to show some respect for this nation? If this nation and it’s principles are as great as you say they are, why can I not exercise those principles.
It seems like you ignore what I write, twentyeight.
Have you posed the question to yourself, the one I have been asking others to do throughout this whole thread?
What disrespects the flag more, tweintyeight, my sitting down during the pledge or someone taking away my rights, the rights the flag stands for? DO NOT IGNORE THIS QUESTION
I never said I did not respect this country or my teacher, if you would actually read the thread twentyeight you would notice me saying that I am better off in this country any others.
Why should I respect someone who disrespects me? Becuase they are the authority and it’s just the way things are? Remember the 60’s? Should black people not argued with police and asked for equal rights because it is wrong to object to authority and it was just the way things were?
Who wants to teach a bunch of well educated students whos stand up for their rights and handle everything in a respectful manner? I do.
As for your statement about people automatically hating the cop that pulls them over for speeding. No sir/ma’am, I do not hate that cop because he pulled me over for speeding, in my many experiences me and my family have only been pulled over for driving while brown that is why I hate the police. I also dislike the police because I know what happens to people who protest for their rights peacefully, they get gassed and hauled off to jail. If you were a true patriot twentyeight you would be right along side those protesters.
Again, Mercutio, I think you have a legal right (no need to be patronizing, we know it’s called the 1st amendment) to do what you did; I still think it was the wrong choice. The quality of mercy (or in this case, respect) is not strained, so knock yourself out exercising your right; no one can force you to be respectful. I happen to wish they could, but they can’t.
When the KKK (for example–obviously Mercutio is not in the same category ),holds a rally, people must grit their teeth and wonder why they’re allowed to. First amendment–a double-edged sword. I wish they would be arrested, but they are exercising their rights. I think what they are doing is reprehensible, but alas, it is legal. Same thing with non-saluters: I find it repulsive, but you’re within your rights to do so.
As for the last comment about the “shallow and petty…run of the mill 15 year olds,” this is what I meant about your looking for validation/approval/applause/whatever. You just basically asserted that you’re better than the other 15-year-olds you know, which is a dangerous assertion.
Just to clarify, Mercutio–don’t get the idea (from my last post) that I want you to be thrown in jail! If that’s what it sounded like, that’s not how it was intended.
Just to add more to this fire, I would like to add that when I wore a shirt that was deemed offensive in High School, I was sent to the principal, and given detention. When I protested to him that it was an infringement of my constitutional rights, I was informed that the State had decided long ago that rights did not apply to students in schools. So…
Mercutio, while I may not agree with your message or your methods, I applaud your ability to phrase your defense well. I do agree with the spirit, however. I love the US, but there are to many (at least 28 too many!) folks that are blind to it’s faults, and when someone brings them up drags out the stale old “If you don’t like it, leave.”
Right, I know how 15 year old students are always comfortable leaving the country to go to Cuba or wherever…
by the way, Twentyeight, you wouldn’t be circumcised, would you? Want to buy a slightly used tug-ahoy?
I’m not going to debate this (or try to anyway) I’ve already been through something like this before. The reason I am posting is just to say I’M HAPPY FOR YOU MERCUTIO! (or however you spell that I’m sorry if its not right.) It’s wonderful to me to see that other young adults believe strongly enough and are wise enough to do what you did.
My personal belief about this matter (or in other words what I do when the pledge is recited during anouncements), is that I stand but do not recite. I personally think that the pledge is not wholy true, and it has lost some of its original meaning. I love the flag and it brings tears to my eyes (on occasion) when the national anthem is sung or played and I also greatly admire those who fought/fight to preserve our freedom but I think that those things and the pledge are two totally different things. Some may dissagree, some may not. All I'm really saying here is that just because someone doesn't wish to do one thing (i.e. saying the pledge) that doesn't mean they don't like the country or the people as a whole.
P.S. I had a substitute a few weeks back who denounced us and forshamed us because we did not recite the pledge. She never asked a reason, never a thought as to why, just decided we were evil or something because that wasn’t our form of pride for our country.
Anyways, I’ll be checking in later, as I said before congrats on your achievement Mercutio! love to all
PLD is definitely not a commie. It appears to me that you called him such just because he deigned to disagree with the atrocious way you feel the Constitution of this land should be disregarded. Feel free to check the boards here and you’ll see that not only do I agree with PLD on this issue, but that I am also a retired Navy Petty Officer First Class. That didn’t happen by me being a commie.
Well, apparently you don’t think the Constitution deserves respect. It wasn’t the flag that established the government which is supposed to protect our rights, now was it?
Correct, only people are persons.
I really thought only Japan had a person as a symbol of the nation. (That’s in their Constitution, btw.) I could’ve sworn we were discussing the United States of America here. After all, not once in my time in Japan did I hear any “pledge of allegiance to the flag of Japan.”
I read PLD’s posting as his resenting a US citizen being forced to do something with which he found to be conscientoously objectionable and which contributed exactly zero to his education.
I also read his posting as him not having a problem resenting folks like you. The symbol is just that, a symbol, and thus is inanimate.
You’re ignoring the minor bit about the country on the other end accepting someone. Many countries have immigration rules. BTW, the country where he lands is not governed by the United States Constitution. But that wouldn’t be a problem for you, right? After all, you don’t care to see it followed.
Actually, the point I gleaned is that your data are as old as your attitudes. I could’ve sworn the McCarthy era was over; however, your unjustified attribution of PLD with “commie” shows that for some special few, they’re stuck in time.
Personally, I believe that any person is far greater than any inanimate object. So far, though, you’re doing a good job of denting that theory.
Completely irrelevant, not to mention rude.
Define which “us” you’re discussing. I certainly don’t belong to any fanatic group, yet I defended this land (yes, even in a combat zone) and am quite thrilled to see someone exercise their rights as defined in the Constitution.
Certainly not you. That is, unless they require everyone to march lock-step and utter, in unison, a pledge with which they may not agree.
Newsflash for you: it’s not illegal to follow the Constitution. It is, on the other hand, illegal to molest children, beat spouses, etc.
Seeing as I spent more than 20 years of my life in the military, and a good portion of that life being the authority over my Soldiers and Sailors (I use the term “my” here, not to indicate ownership, but as in “my friends” or “my coworkers”), it’s quite safe to say I don’t have problem with authority.
I kind of like the last cop who stopped me for speeding. He gave me a five minute safety talk and a written warning. That was in Texas and I was going 15 mph over the speed limit (60 limit, 75 on the speedometer).
Never felt he was inhuman, just in the wrong lane. Pull over already!
Sure sounds like you!
Ditto.
You’re not hidden, apparently.
Care to provide some statistics. It wasn’t funny the last time a self-proclaimed (and incompetent) “trained statistician” polluted this board, either.
You seem to be quite loud in your disrespect of the Constitution.
Please see above about time in military and combat zone.
“Anymore” should be “any more,” “there of” should be “thereof.” Too bad you didn’t learn spelling in whatever school you attended.
The OP did not “intend to humiliate” the teacher; however, the OP did intend to follow the freedom of conscience permitted under the Constitution, and not “just because,” but because the Constitution is the great thing in this land.
FYI, when I enlisted and reenlisted, my oath had not one word about the flag. It did, though, specifically include the words “Support and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
Whenever I see this I am amazed. My teacher said “show some respect” twice and eventually stopped standing up himself. This year the school I go to doesn’t even have the pledge.
The pledge is just a meaningless collection of words. Well not meaningless, but worthless. Not worth standing for up or writing a letter over. Typing about it here is perfectly acceptable though
As an English kid I was at high School in the States in the sixties.
I stood out of respect for the pledge, but did not put my hand on heart nor recite. Despite that, thirty five years later I can still recall the pledge word for word! Listening to it all that time just drilled it into my subconscious.
Maybe just sitting and not participating is just as educating as taking part.
If you look through my posts, you’ll note that I don’t question your rights, but I resent your disrespect for the object which stands for the nation which currently gives you the standard of life, liberty and education you enjoy.
You might object to the pledge of Allegiance, which is somewhat dated, but would it kill you to stand out of respect for the flag which symbolizes America? You have the right not to do so – that very flag stands for that, but is respect for it beyond your capacity?
I’ve been around people who actively debate, protest and dissect various portions of civill rights, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and so on, who still remove their hats when the flag passes by in a parade and who stand out of respect for it, though mutely, when conditions apply. While these people will happily point out every flaw possible with America, argue over the Pledge of Allegiance and inform you that the National Anthem is an old English drinking song, they still show respect for the flag as a symbol of the nation as a whole.
To keep it simple: I personally find your actions repugnant and disrespectful and question the real motives behind them. I will agree most readily that you have the right to do what you did.
There are times when having the right to do something does not mean that the action done is correct.
An example is like the following: If a guest in your home injures himself playing in your yard, say by getting hit in the face with a volley ball during a game, he or his folks may sue you for injuries, expenses and pain and distress. They have the legal right to do so, but that does not make the action right.
Your action did not justify the means. There is much about the flag to respect without saying the Pledge of Allegiance.
You open the door for an elderly woman out of respect. You speak softly at a funeral out of respect. If you choose to visit a temple of a religion not your own, you act with respect for the beliefs of the followers there and don’t go yelling and jeering down the aisles. If you meet your most favorite movie star, you treat him or her with respect.
The symbol of the nation can deserve no less. I have many rights, but there are many instances where I choose not to act on them out of respect.
Some of my opinions have been called outdated, which might be, but I also recall President Iseinhour being in office – so that ought to give you an idea of the eras I’ve lived through. Through everything, I’ve kept my respect for the flag of the nation. To me, that doesn’t seem real difficult. Nor is it difficult to stand up and respect it. Heck, I stand for the National Anthem, though I don’t sing it because I can’t hit the notes.
I might dislike the president, but if I meet him in person, I will treat him with respect for the position he occupies. I am not British, but if I met the Queen, I would also show her respect and show equal respect to the British flag.
Maybe you’re not old enough to grasp my meaning. The American Flag has my respect, even if it is just a symbol.
I consider your actions disrespectful and a smack in the face to what the flag stands for, even though you have the right to do as you did.
I would show respect for the flag outside of school. However I don’t have a choice to go to school or not. You arent required to meet a movie star, go to a funeral, go to a temple, and I don’t open doors for old ladies out of respect. I open doors for people because it is polite.
President who? I don’t recall that one, and I’ve been around since the end of 1958 AD.
Now explain this: Why should someone whose religious beliefs, say a Jehova’s Witness, forbids ANY ACTION respecting an icon of any type stand and thus display respect. You certainly seem to demand said JW doing that.
But, then, I forget that you have confused being a citizen of this land with being a guest in someone’s home. What a crock.
I stand for the pledge, but I don’t recite it anymore. For pretty much the same reasons Mercutio stated. However, I still stand because I think it is a matter of respect.
Out of curiosity, Mercutio, where in California are you from? Your description of what goes on during 2nd period is oddly familiar…
I could make my font size 72 and twentyeight would still ignore my question.
Oh well. :rolleyes:
As for your question pepper, I live in the outskirts of L.A.
Twentyeight, you want blind unquestioning respect from us for a flag, yet you don’t wish to respect the constitutional rights of real people. He, and others, are refusing to stand to salute a piece of fabric and say a pledge of allegence to it, and they believe they have good reasons for their actions.
This is the part where good Americans stand up and say, “Though I disagree with your beliefs, I will defend to the death your right to hold them.”, or words to that effect.
Instead, from you we get the usual “Love it or leave it!” jingoism that takes no thought(except cheap emotional hatred of all those different from yourself, of course).
),holds a rally, people must grit their teeth and wonder why they’re allowed to. First amendment–a double-edged sword. I wish they would be arrested, but they are exercising their rights. I think what they are doing is reprehensible, but alas, it is legal. Same thing with non-saluters: I find it repulsive, but you’re within your rights to do so.