Not for one second do I not think that I do not have it better off than other countries. As I have stated before, over and over and over again, would it be a greater injustice for the rights that those innumerable Americans gave their blood, sweat and tears for be taken away from me or for me not to show any visible signs of respect for them?
You be the judge, Davidson.
Which one is worse?
You know, Drain Bead said this Merc kid was a good newbie who came aboard while I was away.
She understated…
Yer pal,
Satan
Mercutio
I’ll keep it simple.
You piss me off! I stand for the pledge even today. My folks taught me to respect it and the flag. Even if you disagree with the God clause, it is simply respect for a symbol of your nation.
In life, you will be forced to do many things you dislike but if you don’t, while the repercussions will probably not be violent, they will be severe and distasteful. You have won a battle, but you lost the war.
I do not admire you, I detest your actions and I detest the way the system has become so lawyer conscious that common respect stands for nothing. You could have stood out of respect for the flag and not said the pledge. Too much for your over privileged ego to handle? Got it real good don’t you? Good food, good home, children’s rights, good lawyer, parents practiced no-hit, think you’re smarter than average, good health?
No, you don’t have to respect the flag. Freedom of speech says so. The flag is a symbol of the USA, but you’ve had it real easy, so national symbols mean nothing to you.
Standing mute out of respect was just too hard for you, was it? Had to be a big shot, right?
Bite me! I certainly do not respect what you did and certainly will not praise you for it.
I have stood out of respect for many national flags and, for some, as a courtesy and I am proud not only of my nation but it’s symbol. The pledge is optional, but respect for the national symbol is not.
Don’t like it here? Please leave. Go some place else that you respect.
A word of caution. Do not go into the military. Do not apply for government jobs.
Nothing astonishes me more than someone who says, “People fought so that you could have civil rights-how DARE you exercise them!”
Do you really think that standing quietly and pretending to honor a god you don’t believe in and a mere symbol of your rights(not the rights themselves, but the symbol) is the “American” thing to do?
Twentyeight, if people had more respect for each other, and less for an arbitrary symbol that seems to be a magical totem for some, this country would be more to my liking.
Talk about worshipping a graven image. Sheesh!
WARNING: Exercise of your constitutional rights may incur the disapproval of Twentyeight.
You both may bite me.
Did I not say that he could have stood, MUTE, out of RESPECT for the national symbol? He did not have to say the pledge if he did not agree with it.
'smatter. Respect for anything that stands for the USA too tough for you folks to grasp?
Americans have it too damn good. Not only don’t they respect their national symbols, but no one elses either. Everybody has the right to do whatever they want without a thought of pride towards the very nation which gives them those rights.
I can’t believe you don’t see the irony in guilt-tripping someone not to exercise his rights on the basis that he has those rights. How ridiculous do you want to make yourself look?
But whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy do you choose not to show any visible signs of respect for them??
whine
pout
Maybe he does, just not this one.
Either way, why does he have to?
As for the person who decided to put his IQ as his user name, I think that in Great Debates, one does not bite anything. I hope a moderator will correct me if I am wrong…
I know I am not wrong, however, when I state that saying “Bite me” as a debating technique is pretty much saying “I can no longer debate fairly with logic, precedence, common sense or facts, so I will instead say ‘Bite me’.”
Yer pal,
Satan
If Mercutio likes dissing the country, let him.
As a political tactic, I think it’s rather counterproductive. He has alienated potential allies, but only endeared himself to people who already agreed with him. In the long run, it’s not going to help him change the world.
But, then, shooting oneself in the foot is an ancient and honored tradition among rebels. 
I am very friendly with many people on these boards that I have disagreed with very strongly on other topics. I do not know about everyone else on the board but my emotions are not as easily molded as silly putty.
I’ll respond to Twentyeight later 
twentyeight: Why is it so hard for you to understand that in Merc’s eyes, his standing, albeit quietly, is still an active participation in a right with which he disagrees?
I wasn’t talking about these boards. I was talking about the real world.
Improving the world is not usually a one-person project. Adolph Hitler and Pol Pot were not stopped by rugged individualists. They were stopped by large, organized communities. Stopping famines in the Third World takes a group effort. Flags and other nationalist trappings are a way of building teamwork.
Now, if you ignore the flag, it does no harm to others. But it does cause friction between you and people who might otherwise have been more useful to your favorite project.
Satan
OK, BYTE me. Better? There are times when the fewest words make the most exquisite of statements without lengthy mental masturbation and endless banalities of pseudo-intellect or protracted circular statements of one-upmanship.
Besides, being insulted by one who chooses to name himself after the advocate of all that is evil, deceptive, traitorous, and has no fealty to anything, means nothing.
What’s the matter? Showing some respect for the symbol of one’s nation has suddenly become a chore? He can disagree with the pledge all he wants to for the way it is written, but would it kill him to stand up for the flag of his mother country? If he dislikes the country so much, then, by all means, leave it. I hear England is a nice place and Sweden seems pleasant. Canada is pretty cool and so is Australia.
I don’t agree with everything that goes on in the States, but I respect the flag as a symbol of those who have tried to create a great nation and, in my opinion, have pretty well succeeded. In my opinion, it also stands for those who fought and died or were maimed defending this nation, just so some little, ungrateful worm can spout smug reasons why he doesn’t have to respect it.
Red, white and blue. Red and white stands for blood and bandages, was how I was taught. The signs of the struggle to keep the nation free.
I was taught to respect teachers also. Seems that these days kids don’t have to respect anyone, especially teachers. No wonder there is a shortage of educators, because who the heck wants to try to teach a bunch of mouthy little buggers who have more rights than the educators do?
I’ve noticed how many lined up to congratulate the original poster. I think I can get a real good idea of why our prisons are full and lawyers are one of the fastest growing professions in the States.
In school I despised my PE coach, considering him a Neanderthal, but I respected his authority and skills. I’ve learned more than I ever wanted to know about the nasty things famous people have done, things our government has pulled, about big ‘friendly’ businesses and about right minded people having gone terribly wrong but that has not caused me to disrespect our flag.
The flag is a symbol of the nation as a whole, the good and the bad, all races living here, all religions, all political beliefs and all commonly bound by the term ‘American.’ We damn sure ain’t perfect, but we’re a darn sight better than the majority of other nations and we keep trying to get better.
The flag basically stands for all of us who choose to be citizens of this nation, whether we are good, bad or mediocre.
So, by refusing to respect the Flag, you’re refusing to respect me – and 246 million others who live here.
So, I might not say the Pledge, but I will stand for the flag because I’m part of the 246 million making up America.
**
Yeah. Generally right when your entire argument got shot out of the water.
**
Gee, an ad hominem! :rolleyes: No big surprise that you once again resort to name calling to avoid actual debate and another debating fallacy.
I think I’ll avoid the rush and start ignoring you now…
Yer pal,
Satan
Twentyeight, have a look at this great patriotic limerick.
*America, home of the free
A wonderful country to be
Living inside
Our lands are so wide
And two of the borders are sea.
America, your soldiers died
Back when everybody defied
The king’s wretched tax
His thumb on our backs
And then, in relief, they all sighed.
America, you make me smile
You’re fabulous, every mile
When I die, here’s my grave
Because I want to save
A sense of that pride for a while.*
As you can see, this limerick represents and honors our nation. I ask you to respect it by saying it ten times out loud. If you don’t, not only are you disrespecting the limerick and its author, but you’re disrespecting the other 246 MILLION Americans.
In fact, since our country is so wonderful and countless soldiers have died preserving our freedoms, I think you ought to say this limerick ten times out loud before every meal. No, make it thirty. Is it really so hard to give your nation a little respect?
Remember, refusing to say the limerick is the equivalent of spitting in the face of every man, woman, and child who ever died in battle for America… just as much as refusing to stand for the pledge.
Obviously, this debate is not making any progress. OK, Mercutio, you have the right to do what you did–refuse to salute the flag. You also have the right to stand by the Lincoln Memorial and thumb your nose at it because you disagree with what he did. Doing either is wrong but legal. I side with those who think you’re just being disrespectful to make a sensation or get a reaction (from your teacher, your classmates, and the members of the SDMB), but obviously no one is going to change his/her mind on this debate.
(The fact that you didn’t just live with the quiet satisfaction of a “successful protest,” but rather chose to post your victory here for all to read, suggests that the real motive was to gain a personal victory rather than a moral one.)
Please be so kind as to edit in your mind my posting above to read, “rite” instead of “right.”
Now that’s out of the way:
A person is not the flag and the flag is not a person. By not standing and/or reciting the pledge, another person is not showing disrespect to anyone. He or she is merely exercising the right of free speech and freedom of conscience.
Right. Because if you don’t say the Pledge, you must hate America. Isn’t it obvious?
Did you know that the man who wrote the Pledge was a Socialist? So, by saying the Pledge, you must be agreeing with Socialism. Right? And if you don’t like Socialism, you can get the hell out!
My grandfather and my father took bullets for this country, in Germany and Vietnam, respectively. I respect them. The flag is not a person.
And yet, none of these posters is in prison. Amazing, isn’t it. On the other hand, prison are just full of gung-ho patriots, I’ll bet.
Oh, you didn’t choose. You were born here.
Puh-leeze, Drama Queen. Get off the cross already. Besides, the population of the U.S. exceeds 300 million now, but your demographic sources are probably as dated as your dumbass jingoistic attitudes.
pldennison
Hello commie.
There’s always someone who finds reasons not to respect anything that deserves respect. The flag is not a person, but it is a symbol of the nation, something you seem to resent. You have a problem respecting symbols of greatness?
Those of us who stay here, choose to do so, or is that another concept you wish to twist? Anyone is free to leave at any time. Do you recall reading about the conscientious objectors running to Canada and Mexico during the Vietnam war? Well, it did not take any money for bunches of them, now did it? Today, you may cross over cheaply into Canada, Mexico or even Cuba or the Bahamas. Being born here does not mean you are required to stay here.
Ah! Frivolous insults. Any other insignificant nit-picks you care to pounce on like a kid in kindergarten? Did I get my punctuation right? Spell everything OK for you? The basic point was still there, even if I’ve not checked the census records in 6 months.
Find giving respect to a symbol which is unequivocally greater than you will ever be, hard to do? An autonomous person are you? Nothing is greater than the self? Lonely at the top is it? Top of the local dung heap?
Some of us still believe in the Nation’s symbol without having to join fanatical groups. Socialists contributed to the democracy also. Who cares?
So? None of the yet to be discovered serial killers, wife beaters, child molesters or embezzlers are in prison either.
Hmm. I wonder how many of the current posters have problems with authority, resent the cop stopping them for speeding, feel that the slow driver before them is subhuman, are convinced that they know better how to educate kids than the professionals or feel like they deserve much more attention than they get? Any hidden sociopaths here? There has to be at least one who is maladjusted to adult society. At least a couple who are absolutely convinced that they know better about almost everything than anyone else. A few have to be ‘stuck’ in a disliked job where they feel being held back from greatness.
Usually, those types are the loudest about disrespecting a symbol of greatness and pride.
And, of course, there has to be a few in school or early college, full of themselves, convinced they could change the world if they would be listened to and absolutely positive that they know so much more about things than ‘old farts’. Plus, they haven’t had to face any serious struggles since they popped out of the womb.
Anymore enlightened intellectuals here? To whom pride in a nation and the symbols there of is archaic, degrading, restricting and pointless? Anymore spoiled kids wanting to humiliate a teacher and attempt to become ‘big men’ by insulting the national symbol just because they can do so?
