Thank you, MGibson. I think your analogy was fine. We shouldn’t force a student to do ANYTHING!?!? Give me a break.
A related anecdote…my first year teaching (yes, I am biased here; if I were Mercutio’s teacher, I wonder what I would have done…), we had a kid who decided, as a “protest,” to give the “Nazi salute” while the Pledge of Allegiance was going on (I don’t know the official name for it–arm extended…you know the one I mean). He was expelled the following day.
Maybe I shouldn’t be posting, as I teach in a private school, where the rules are different anyway. If a kid claimed to be using his American right to protest, we’d just say that he waived that right when he came to a private institution. Even in a public school, though, I’d have to agree with those who say that, well, it’s just good form to show respect to those who are appreciative to the flag and the pledge.
I’d say wiping your butt with the American flag would be disprespectful. Simply remaining seated is exercizing ones right not to pledge. After all, the pledge itself refers to the civil liberties that makes the US so great.
With that friendly note, I’m sending this to Great Debates, if you don’t mind. A good topic, but I’m sure most of the participants don’t find it mundane or pointless. I know I don’t.
I have to go with Coldfire here. I assume Mercutio is simply sitting quietly during the pledge this strikes me as neither disrespectful nor disruptive. The Nazi salute, for example, is clearly disrespectful and disruptive with a clear intent of offending others.
Otherwise, I also disagree with the opin. that he has not justified his position. While I don’t agree with it in many respects, he did so in calm, rational and intellectually coherent manner. For that, and for being willing to stand firm to his beliefs without childish acting out (e.g. Nazi salutes) he does deserve some respect. (I assume the last part)
(hmm, as I recall I had to do the pledge oh so many years ago – Badtz, class of '90, yer a whipper snapper. Didn’t care for the forced aspect, although I had nothing against the pledge per se. I’ll go with the op that an obligatory pledge is not terribly useful.)
But where is the line drawn? How can one say that a Nazi-saluter is “childishly acting out,” while a stubborn pledge-sitter-downer is “respectfully protesting”? Some might characterize the sitting down as “clearly disrespectful” or even childish itself. Perhaps the Nazi-saluter saw his actions as “respectfully protesting”? He did make a big deal about how his right to free speech was being violated.
A student making a decided effort to sit rather than stand might seem to the other (patriotic) students in the room just as disrespectful and obtrusive as a Nazi-saluter.
Just to play devil’s advocate, of course…
Again, I’m involved in a private school, so my opinion may not carry as much weight. If my students don’t say the pledge to my liking as it’s read over the intercom, I simply have them stand up and say it again until we get it right.
The Sieg! Heil! salute was the specific ritual invoked by a political regime that opposed all concepts of liberty, murdered millions of people, and declared war on the U.S.
Sitting down is not participating.
A student who thought that extending his arm in a Nazi salute was “respectful protest” would be so lacking in historical awareness and logic that s/he would probably need remedial instruction in a great many areas. (I’m assuming a high school kid, here, not a first grader.)
(Yes, I can see where the other students might see sitting down as disrespectful (and I strongly suspect that Mercutio is more intent on getting way with something than actually having an objection to the pledge), but there is a difference between a passive non-participation and an active “counter-demonstration.”)
Uh, yes, of course I see the difference–thus the “devil’s advocate” remark. I thought that the decision to expel the Nazi-saluter was justified. It was a terrible thing to do. I also think that NOT standing and saluting is disruptive and offensive (though it goes without saying that it’s a different thing to sit than it is to Nazi-salute). But again, the Nazi-saluter did try to justify what he did as “free speech”–I can’t remember exactly (it was years ago), but it was something along the lines of disagreeing with the U.S. government which he saw as being akin to Hitler’s Germany (somehow–the details escape me). The Nazi salute was therefore a tongue-in-cheek (he said) “salute” to the America he hated. I believe he uttered a sarcastic “God bless America” as he was emptying his locker.
Sitting down is, to a lesser extent, offensive. Obviously the teacher was offended by Mercutio’s not standing. Just because you say that sitting down and not participating is not offensive, that does not make it true.
I wonder what the punishment would have been for the Nazi-saluter in a public school. Like I said, I’m at a private school, so the rules are different. Does anyone think that he would have been severely disciplined?
Well, the US murdered its share of the indians in a similar scheme, had half the country convinced that blacks weren’t people, and the declared war on itself over it.
The comparison isn’t that great but it also isn’t a stretch.
That said, I always said the pledge. the idea behind our nation, if not implimented well, rests heavy in my heart and I gladly say the pledge.
That said, I think forcing anyone to say the pledge smacks of nationalism. We can’t be content enough merely making the students listen to it every day? Sheesh.
However, Mercutio, I wonder…would you say the pledge if the President of the US(as a leader, not as a specific name) was at your school that day? If you were on a visit to the White House? I wonder if, in all situations, you feel so strongly. I admire you standing up to your teacher. I myself got into quite a bit of trouble for similar beliefs. My principle never understood why I was always in so much trouble and yet attended all the advanced classes and got great grades. But, I look back and reflect that much of my distaste was guided mainly at the school itself. I have now resigned myelf to speak out only on issues that, regardless of the company, I would defend.
Being one of those weirdo Jesus freaks who doesn’t pledge allegiance to any earthly powers (including the US flag), I personally don’t have any problem with standing quietly, hands at sides, during the Pledge of Allegiance, the National Anthem, etc. When you’re in a foreign country, and you’re present when they’re observing their patriotic rituals, IMO that’s the most reasonable way of showing respect without indicating allegiance.
I think sitting during the Pledge takes it a bit further. While it isn’t actively disruptive, it’s certainly making one’s non-acquiescence more visible and noticeable. Intentionally or not, it may be perceived as Making a Statement.
Speaking of which, the American salute to the flag used to be almost identical to the Nazi salute - only the American salute was with palm up instead of palm down. IIRC, they changed it to putting the hand over the heart at that time, to avoid any confusion.
One question for y’all who say that Mercutio is being disruptive by sitting through the Pledge…
Is Mercutio causing disruption or is it the teacher who makes a scene by threatening him?
Seems to me that someone sitting quietly ain’t being very disruptive. The one causing the disruption is the teacher, by insisting that Mercutio do something that she legally can’t require (assuming that Merc is in public school).
(I’m skipping the issue of alleged ‘disrespect’ - I think that’s purely a matter of opinion & amn’t really interested in arguing it.) Mercutio - applause for your polite and reasonable methods of dealing with a problem, and congrats that you resolved the situation to your liking.
I agree with you. I stopped pledging the flag as a private high school freshman and the teacher decided not to make a big deal of it. I didn’t want to pledge anything but God and I didn’t want to be part of the patriotism of the time which said Russians were evil and should be bombed to hell and back.
I’m not sure what to make of this. Firstly, I don’t think refusing to participate in something is tantamount to protesting against it. How else is Mercutio supposed to refrain from participating other than by, well, refraining from participating? Even standing without reciting is participation to some extenta, a gesture of respect for a ritual he objects to. It has been suggested that since sitting is more visible that Mercutio may be exercising his rights to make a statement. Well, what of that? Whether said statement is Anti-Pledge, Anti-Authority, or even Anti-American is immaterial. The fact still remains that it is his statement to make, and he is within his rights to do so. In effect, some folks seem to be saying, “In our country you have the right to believe whatever you want, but we’ll think you’re rude if you actually express them.” What is it exactly that offends people? Is it that he doesn’t believe in the same things you do, or that he is strong-willed enough to say so?
As I went over in my OP, I object with 95% of it. If I do not like what is on TV, I turn it off; If I do not like what the pledge of allegiance says, I do not participate in it. It may be rude to you, but I have the right to do so and I am not partaking in sitting down simply because I can but because I object (as I have made it painfully clear). So what if it is good form? Should I do what everyone else does to keep them happy? If everyone was zeig heiling each other, should I partake in that so I do not get scowled at?
In my [DISCLAIMER] I do not hold my views to me above everyone elses, I could be wrong on some things you know. [/DISCLAIMER] view of the U.S. a lot of people are at each others throats because they are not the same race, eage, in the same tax bracket. We squabble over many things and in the end rarely get anything done.
What good would that do me EB? I live in California, the amount of mail a congressperson recieves is unfathomable and not to mention that it would not relieve me from doing something I did not want to do. Maybe in the long run my leter would be answered and the words would be removed, but until then I refuse to stand for something I object to. As I have stated before, I object to 95% of it, not just those 2 words.
Would I sit and not say the pledge if the President was visiting my school? Yes, of course I would. Would I spit in his face and stomp out of the room? No.
Do I have problems with school itself? Yes. Do those issues branch into why I refuse to stand for the pledge? No.
For those who feel my sitting down is disrespectful:
What is more disrespectful to the flag, this country, it’s citizens and then men who died for all of those, me not standing for the pledge and excercising the rights they hold so dear or having those rights stripped of me?
If I were the teacher, I would be leery of letting some punk kid in essence say “I don’t have to participate, and you can’t make me.”
Given that, a good response the first time it came up would be thus: The student may sit or stand at his option, with the stipulation that if he sits, by tomorrow he will submit an essay on why he will not participate. If the essay is unconvincing, plaigarized, absent, or otherwise unsatisfactory, the student will face the consequences for refusing to take part.
This solution weeds out most students who are trying to be rebellious or disruptive, because they don’t want extra homework. It teaches kids that if they won’t put in the effort, they don’t get their rewards. It’s good training for writing letters to their congresspeople. And it gives the students a choice.
What actually happened is pretty much what I describe here, but it’s unfortunate that it wasn’t the teacher’s idea. It ended up as a conflict which Mercutio won. If the essay had been the teacher’s idea, there would have been no conflict, and both parties could choose a course where they didn’t lose face. But given how it went, good for you, Mercutio, for standing up (or sitting down, as the case may be) and putting the effort in for your beliefs in a rational and articulate manner.
sengkelat-good point, except-WHY DO THEY HAVE TO HAVE A REASON?
If they’re just doing it to get away with something-let them! They’re trying to shock the teacher. I’d say, fine, you don’t want to, don’t have to.
If they’re trying to be rebellious or disruptive, well, aren’t you just making it worse? I mean, they’re simply trying to PROVE their rights. They have that right to refuse, and NO ONE should make them.
I personally would ignore it. They wouldn’t get the little rise out of me they hoped for.
I’m a high school senior and recite the pledge faithfully. What Mercutio did is not wrong, but I do not believe that it is something to be applauded. If for a minute the shoe could be on the other foot and you were suddenly a peasant child in China, a starving Ethiopian, or a primitive native of the rainforests of Panama, you would realize how good you have it. The US was not built on words and ideals. It was built through the blood, sweat, and tears of innumerable Americans. I am agnostic and do not agree with the “under God” segment of the pledge, but I say it anyway. It is not so much as a statement glorifying god, as it is part of a whole that has become more a symbol of freedom than anything else. I remind myself every day of how well off I am, and that my freedom is not to be taken for granted. I hope you are as proud to be a citizen of the greatest nation in the world as I am.
