Of course, but I’d really like for you to account for you misrepresentation of my position. You wrote “I don’t know why you insist that Zimmerman must have done everything absolutely correctly in this instance”. Where the hell did you get this idea from? Why did you misattribute it to me? These aren’t just idle questions. I’d really like you to answer them.
Which is, of course, NOT evidence that he actually did brandish his weapon. You’re just sharing your biases with us.
You asked “What crime, specifically, was Martin committing which gave justification to a self-defense shooting?” I gave you the answer. We don’t have any evidence that either Zimmerman or Martin had committed anything that would be a crime that night until Martin punched Zimmerman in the face and climbed on top of him and bashed his head on the concrete.
Occasionally razor says a man with a gun doesn’t need to scream for help because he has a damn gun. An unarmed kid having a fight or flight reaction would scream and cause defensive wounds.
He was defensively bashinf Martin’s head against the ground, after defensively returning to Zimmerman from a safe place and defensively punching him in the face?
There’s an obvious reason that Zimmerman was screaming, which is that he didn’t actually want to have to shoot Martin, but had (or felt he had) no other choice. There’s no obvious reason for Martin to be screaming, as there’s no reason to think he was threatened or attacked. It’s pretty clear that he attacked Zimmerman without provocation, and there’s a couple of plausible reasons why that would be. I genuinely don’t know why it’s so hard to accept that, or why people are so determined to paint Zimmerman as a murderer in defiance of the evidence.
Didn’t ever think I’d have to explain what an order meant, but here we go. An order is a command to do or not do something. Ex. “Don’t pick up that trash.” Is an order, a command to do or not do something. If they said “We really don’t need you to pick up that trash.” That is a suggestion, while they might not want you to pick up the trash, you are free to do so. If the 911 operator meant to say “Do not follow him. “ the operator would have said so.
How was Zimmerman above suspicion? He was arrested, investigated, the results of that investigation were turned over to the state’s attorney. The justice department investigated, a case was brought before a grand jury, he was charged with second-degree murder. So tell me how he was above suspicion?
Nice way to put race into this, Zimmerman knew his neighborhood and saw someone he didn’t know, who in his eyes looked suspicious, give there had been break-ins it would be reasonable for him to call the police.
Never said that, notice I said “…Zimmerman stated he was going back to his car and that Trayvon approached and attacked him.” We only have his version of what happened, he stated he had lost track of Martin, and may have been going back to his car, we DON’T KNOW.
And the point of that was? Zimmerman did sustain injures consistence with a fight. That’s evidence of a struggle.
And went back to confront him, if he really felt he was in danger why confront him?
[/QUOTE]
“If you believe Zimmerman”. Zimmerman’s story doesn’t line up with the evidence we have, so believing him is not necessarily my first instinct. Maybe he was confused, and is is not intentional lying, but the story he gave does not line up.
[/QUOTE]
We know there was a confrontation, we know there was a fight, did Zimmerman chase Martin down, from the evidence I doubt it. He had been following Martin, in contact with the police, telling them where he was, why would he suddenly go up to Martin to confront him?
So just take the law into your own hands then? Maybe that’s what Martin did.
Which is why he should have called the police. BTW I don’t consider a 17 year old a kid.
Nope, given the number of blacks in my neck of the woods the odds of me following any black person is very small.
I have searched my backyard, armed. I have confronted drunks in my house whether he was breaking in or just confused who know, but my wife was getting my gun while I was on the phone to the police. He ran away and no I didn’t chase him.
"He said he once text messaged Zimmerman with praises for a group of workers who followed a burglar. Their actions led to the arrest of a young black man, who was charged with burglaries in the neighborhood, O’Brien said.
O’Brien added that police indicated it was acceptable to follow suspicious persons at a safe distance. He also said he signed an agreement with police to increase patrol of the area and to tow illegally parked cars." My bold. It appears to me the concept that a young black man committing burglaries was planted in Zimmerman’s mind not that he was a racist.
“She added that she believe Zimmerman was a professional person who wanted to make a change in his community, which had been targeted by burglars. Dorival said she tried to recruit Zimmerman to a citizens patrol program, but that he didn’t want to participate.”
Someone without a phone would certainly call for help and/or ask someone to notify the police. Regardless of whether or not they have a gun, or knife, or club.
Are you attempting to have a friendly discussion on the internet by asking questions and making assertions, or are you looking for hardline positions you can argue against?
You’ve shown no interest in debating this, only in trying to reinforce your preconcieved ideas.
Look, Zimmerman did not call the police then intentionally go out of his way to kill Martin while they were on the way. That makes no sense, no one who looked at this case objectively would think that. To believe Zimmerman was out to get Martin, or that he initiated the threats and violence, shows either an ignorance of the facts as revealed at the trial, or a failure to think logically about it.
We have more than that, we have the girl Martin was on the phone to at that time saying that Martin had lost sight of Zimmerman, and was right by his father’s home. There’s no reason to believe that both of them were lying.
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Based on the evidence presented to the court, and not the stories/rumors/spin/biases of the news media outlets leading up to the trial, the jury doesn’t seem to have agreed with your opinion.
How would you bash someone’s head on the ground while simultaneously covering their mouth? I wonder how many hands someone would need in order to accomplish such a feat?
I think it’s infinitely more plausible that Zimmerman’s desire to be a badass action hero sent him chasing after a kid that he incorrectly pegged as a criminal. His impulsiveness and poor judgement caused him to initiate a physical confrontation once their paths crossed, and Martin became afraid for life once he realized Zimmerman intended to keep him from getting home.
Zimmerman, being the idiot that he was, was trying to hold the kid there until the cops came. Martin, not being a mind reader, only knew that a menacing looking tub of guts was trying to kidnap him. He screamed for the neighbors to help him because…why wouldn’t he? He was unarmed, alone, and had been pursued unrelentingly in the dark by a stranger who refused to explain his actions towards him. When he realized help was not coming, he did what any frightened person would do in that situation. He struck out in defense. And yes, that meant Zimmerman got scratched up. It does not mean that Martin was the aggressor. When he realized he was unable to control the kid, Zimmerman did what most impulsively violent people with guns do. He shot Martin.
To believe Zimmerman was the victim, we have to believe Martin—whose only stated agenda, according to witnesses, was to get home after a trip to the store—suddenly flipped out for not reason and went on a violent punching, smothering, head-pummeling frenzy from hell. We also have to believe that Zimmerman conducted himself in such a way so as not to make the kid in fear for his life, despite evidence that he chased after him for a length of time, never explained his actions (by his own damn account), and carried a gun into a conflict with an unarmed person. We also have to try to make his testimony fit the physical evidence, and very little of it does. The screaming, the location of the scuffle, the timeline…most of it does not gel with what Zimmerman claimed.
But me spelling all this out is futile. If you still think Zimmerman is worthy of your defense, despite his history and despite his multiple encounters with trouble since the verdict, then it’s obvious nothing is going to change your mind.
It’s not an UNFOUNDED assumption. It’s evidence which was presented to the court. If you chose to ignore that evidence, that’s your choice, but you can’t claim it’s UNFOUNDED.
No. Bashing someone’s head on the ground, AND covering that someone’s mouth during an extended struggle is possible. It would difficult to do both simultaneously.
You are factually wrong that Zimmerman chased Martin, or that he in any way prevented him from going to his father’s home. These are not facts that are in doubt, and yet you ignore them, so your whole argument is invalid.
Your belief in your scenario requires you to believe some things that are known to be false, and also many things for which there are no evidence. Just to pick one thing you claimed, what is your evidence that Martin was “pursued unrelentingly” by Zimmerman? It’s counter to the evidence given by both Zimmerman and Deedee, as well as what Zimmerman said whilst he was on the phone to the police.
That’s ignoring the fact that following someone and asking them what they are doing is not, in fact, a threat - even if you fail or refuse to say why you are doing it.
You are ignorant of the basic facts of this case, or are chosing not to take them into account in your fantasies. Because, for some reason, you find it hard to believe that a 17 year old petty criminal could possibly have attacked someone.
Except for the fact that Zimmerman was not given instructions by any police officer, and court testimony shows that it was Martin who chose to referred to the person following him (Zimmerman) by racial epitaphs. Zimmerman did mentioned Martin’s race AFTER being asked to do so by the dispatcher (aka not police officer).