In the late 90’s I worked at a Cabinet mill with about 70 Employees. 9 of them were Iraqi refugees, all Moslems. Only a couple of them were assholes. At another cabinet mill there were 5 Moslems. One was a college-aged jock who liked fast cars, cool clothes and horny girls. One of them was super-nice, gave me a copy of the Holy Koran and told me that some people are born to be Moslems, some peope aren’t and never pressured me about religion. All of them but the two assholes would politely answer any question, however ridiculous, about their culture.
Your poll, so why don’t you provide an answer to your own question? Also, since everyone so far seems to know “good” Muslims, what insight have you gained so far?
I live in Dearborn Heights .We have lots of moslems around. My neighbor is an Iraqi poet who was jailed by Saddam. Stores Every walk of life ,I run into them. They are just people.
I’ve known about a dozen Muslims and all of them were good people, on par with any of the Christians or Jews I’ve known.
Now were they good Muslims, following every word of the Qur’an?
No. They were on par with the Christians and Jews I’ve known.
Almost all of them liked to drink and party and various other activities that would be haraam. Some of them were very peaceful people who didn’t support violence in any way. Some supported the war in Iraq. Some didn’t. Some were very hospitable to guests. Others were your typical twenty-something Americans and they might tell you to help yourself to a Coke in the fridge if they remembered it. None were bigots as far as I was aware. No different than anyone else, really.
I never counted 'em up, but I’ve met many dozens of professed muslims, primarily of Algerian, Pakistani, Egyptian, Libyan, Tunisian and UAE nationalities, and I’ve interacted with them in Europe, some of their home countries and the USA.
Of those, the ones I’ve interacted the most would, I suppose, be generally ‘good’ muslims as defined by the OP, and almost always educated professionals. I’ve found no particular difference in OK-to-jerk ratio for this group vs. persons of other religions or ethnic backgrounds, although a few tended to look down somewhat on persons of other ethnicities than their own or American, especially ethnic women.
The biggest jerks I ran across who might also be muslim were in Egypt, but here we’re talking about specific people who made a living by trying to fleece tourists or spent their time trying to lobby for visas to the 'States (which I found baffling because there was simply nothing I could or would ever do in that regard). I even had a guard at the Egyptian National Museum demand a bribe from me while I was just walking around looking at the exhibits. While extremely annoying at the time, I don’t hold that behavior very much against them; things are tough for poor folk in Egypt, and I don’t think their behavior had anything much to do with being muslim per se.
Of all these people, I’ve only met a couple that ended up being openly hostile to me based on my nationality or non-muslimness, and even there it was about the same level of bigotry that I seen much more often against muslims, among Americans and Europeans.
Only one. My boss. He’s very westernized, born in Lebanon, spent a good deal of his childhood in Great Britain, went to college in the U.S. His wife is an American, I believe may be Roman Catholic. He just recently became a U.S. citizen.
Forgiveness and mercy* Well, when I screw up with something, he will tell me about it, explain the consequences and ask me to try to be careful not to do it again.
Peacefulness and promoting peace** Don’t know.
Being a good neighbor – He’s a “good neighbor” to the people in the office, also coaches a local kids’ sports team, and is active in the local Rotary club.
Good hospitality – Yes.
Valuing all people equally, regardless of gender, race or beliefs (So, no racism, arrogance, being a dick to the “little people”, etc.) Absolutely yes, beyond a shadow. More so than at least one of my cow-orkers.
I lived in Mali for two years, a predominately Muslim country. Most of the people I knew were employees of the U.S. Embassy there, and most were sober, hard-working, cheerfully honest people. We had a few bad apples, which is to be expected, and they were usually weeded out quickly (I fired two of them). Crime was very low and drunkeness almost unheard of.
On the other hand, I also lived in Uganda, a predominately Christian country. Most of the people were hard-working, gentle, honest people. However, the crime rate was very high, and drunkeness was common.
Take from that whatever you wish.
Is this a Weeds reference, or was that episode referencing some real world thing?
Daniel
It’s a real world thing.
Locally Your Black Muslim Bakery ( which was run by a highly idiosyncratic NOI offshoot ) was famous for their bean pies and other baked goods, which at one time you could purchase at stands at the SF and/or Oakland International airports. Due to some pretty considerable recent legal issues ( charges of kidnapping/child slavery, statutory rape, assault, muder, financial malfeasance, etc. ) and internal family infighting they are recently defunct. But for decades they were an Oakland institution of sorts.
Wikipedia has the sordid story: Your Black Muslim Bakery - Wikipedia
All the Muslims I’ve known have been pretty nice folks. Traveled through Muslim countries, too, with nary a problem. But not been in the Middle East, for whatever that’s worth.
I lived in Saudi Arabia for 2 1/2 years and found that folks are folks. The zealots seek and get the press (same as here in the US), but most people value peace and harmony, are curious and respectful about other ways of life, and are far more interested in loving their families and enjoying life than they are concerned about religious differences.
The Muslims I work with here in the states tend to be more affluent and educated than the hoi polloi I fraternized with in Arabia, but not discernably different in attitude, values, or behaviors. More conservative than most Californians, to some extent due to religious traditions, but there are many Californians who are far more religiously conservative than them.
You all will think I’m a complete idiot, but I forgot that I actually spent six months living in a Muslim country, and came across hundreds of people, thousands of people, all of them Muslim. When I wrote the above, I was thinking of Muslims I know in this country.
Of course, my general conclusion doesn’t change, and it’s the same as everyone else’s.
I don’t know one good Muslim. Ldon’t know one bad Muslim either. But I’ve worked and done business with maybe a dozen Sikhs and they’ve all been solid citizens. Why mention the Sikhs? Well given their relatively small worldwide population, their terrorist kill ratio in the area of worldwide aviation is more substantial than that of Muslims, but seems to have no bearing on the conduct of the vast majority of the people. I don’t see the relevance of the OP.
This is a joke right? You can’t be serious. Woman are treated like garbage in Saudi Arabia. Even as this thread is being discussed a woman has been sentenced to death by beheading for witchcraft because she made a man impotent. A couple of months ago a woman was arrested because she was at a coffee house (corporate lunch) without a male family escort. Woman can’t drive and they wear black robes to cover themselves in a country that is as hot as hell. There is nothing that even remotely represents tolerance in Saudi Arabia. It is the walking definition of intolerance.
My personal experience with Muslims goes back to 9/11 when a local mosque held a question-and-answer session. I asked about the destruction of the Buddha statues in Afghanistan and was told it was justified according to Islamic law.
So by the arbitrary measure of valuing all people equally, regardless of gender, race or beliefs I would have to say I don’t know any good Muslims. The Muslims who represented their group were polite and by all appearances would be invisible in an American neighborhood. But their belief structure wasn’t much different than the KKK’s position on burning down black churches.
I’ve known four muslims. All four were good by your criteria. And I don’t understand what this thread is for.
-FrL-
I’ve not found any difference between Muslims I’ve known and non-Muslims I’ve known on the “good person” scale. None perfect, few too bad. That’s the way we humans come for the most part.
(Hoping to make this into some kind of debate) I think this illustrates how stereotypes are formed. Fairly few Americans have too much experience with Muslims other than in casual ways or through media portrayals. The most vivid of those portrayals are media driven and are overwhelming by the Islamic terrorist in the news. Therefore it is easy for Americans to hold negative stereotypes as they have a paucity of real life experiences with real people to offfset that image in their minds.
I’m sure that’s what Gozu is fishing for, right?
Hundred. I’m living in the predominately Muslim North Province of Cameroon.
It’s a lot like America. Some people are unbelievably good, most people are average, and there are some jerks. Compared to Christians around here, I’d say Muslims are more quiet, less likely to drink and harrass women on the street, more family-oriented and serious minded and more welcoming. However, they are more likely to have many young wives, are a little less ambitious, and are less interested in education. I am usually more comfortable in Muslim areas and with Muslim friends than Christian ones.
Let’s take this on a one by one scale…
Forgiveness and mercy*
I’d give this a B. There is a fair amount of vigilante justice, but that is largly because normal avenues of justice (the police, etc.) don’t work very well here. For small neighborhood crimes and feuds, I think there is a fair amount of forgivness.
Peacefulness and promoting peace**
B+. People are pretty in to peace here. Currently most of the country is involved in riots, but it hasn’t hit the North yet. In discussions about international events, most people side with the peace makers. Nearly everyone here was deeply affected by September 11th and speak pretty often about how terrible it was. However, I believe that once people decide to fight, they go all out. Peace is the ideal and everyone is working for it, but people have still not forgotten the days that they were warriors and they will fight if called to.
Being a good neighbor
A+. People are very good neighbors. They take care of each other’s houses, kids, etc. I feel completely safe and secure in my Muslim neighborhood. For example, if my cooking gas runs out my neighbors will give me some of their food or let me finish my meal on their stoves. A few times when crazy people have tried to come in my compound, they’ve been chased out by the neighbors.
Good hospitality
A++++. People here are welcoming and neighborly to a fault. If I…or any yahoo on the street…walk into anybody’s house they will feed me, give me a place to stay, and even give me what little money they have. I’ve spent many a nights- especially after holidays- laying in bed sick people so many people insisted I eat so much of their food. People will give their last penny to a stranger passing through if they ask for it. And not just foreigners, either. Hospitality is a major part of the culture.
Valuing all people equally, regardless of gender, race or beliefs (So, no racism, arrogance, being a dick to the “little people”, etc.)
C. Gender roles are still pretty regressive here. People have their prejudices (Arabs and the French get the most viritol here) but they are pretty accepting of other religions. I’ve never had any attempts to convert me beyond a few jokes about “Islamisizeing” me. I think people pretty much think we are all worshiping the same god in our own ways and don’t worry about.
I used to have a younger work friend who was a Turkish Muslim who was hot, hot, hot+. I treated her more like a little sister but we traveled together, went out together, and stayed at the same hotels with rooms next door to one another. As a bonus, she was an identical twin.
So yes, there are some good ones.
Every single one I’ve met. Which is a grand total of one. Still, she was sweet, friendly, very smart, and an extremely talented flautist. Always good to watch her, in her headscarf and long dress, talking classical music with our oboeist, who was an Israeli Jew.
I think most people, of whatever race or religion, are just people. No better or worse than any other.
3 out of 3. I’ve never lived in a predominantly Muslim area. I also generally don’t bring up religion as a discussion, so there may be several more I’ve known that never mentioned they were Muslim.