How many "real" Black Belts do you know?

In My Humble Opinion
1

in this thread, an observation was raised about the high incidence of people claiming to be black belts in discussion boards, as compared with the relatively few people IRL who actually are.

A corollary issue was raised about how black belts were handed out far too quickly, in the US in particular.

Personally, I have not been around message boards long enough to see lots of people “claiming” to be black belts, or have extensive experience or expertise in martial arts. (The SDMB is my first and only foray into such fora) So far, the people I have “met” here seem perfectly legitimate in that they seem possessed of both knowledge and integrity.

As for the second issue, I can see several sides to this. I do believe that some schools, regional organizations, or even whole disciplines dispense black belts (or equivalent high ranks) too easily either because of lax standards perpetuated by lazy or incompetent instructors, or promotional processes are driven by profit rather than achievement. A third possibility is the eternal complaint that “kids just don’t want to work hard the way we used to,” and so we have had to “dumb down” standards.

However, I also know many, many highly qualified and dedicated instructors who have very high standards, and students who are more than willing to work hard to learn not only technique, but the culture and philosophy MA’s are intended to promote.

As for the contention that the US is particularly egregious in this regard, I’d have to disagree. Just speaking from my experience in judo, practicing and training in Korea, Japan, Germany and the US, (and playing with people from countries too numerous to list) I’d have to say that the quality of black belts ranges widely all over the world. In Japan and Korea, for example, judo is very widely practiced, and many, many students get their shodans (1st degree black belts) in high school. However, they do not tend to be any more skilled or competent than shodans in the US.

Ok, I have lots more I can say, but this post is already pretty long, so I’ll wait and see if anyone is actually interested in discussing this.

2

I know nothing about martial arts beyond recognizing names of the different kinds (not that I know one from the other) A friend of mine from my college days earned a black belt (no idea what art), and he worked very hard to achieve it. The guy’s a perfectionist and a bit arrogant about his perfectionism, so I know he didn’t just “get” it. I have no idea if he’s kept up with it - over the last few years, he’s started to take on a dough-boy shape - he’s looking all of his mid-40 years.

As far as lowered standards, I haven’t a clue. There’s some kind of karate academy down the street from me. I’ve seen trophies in their windows. I have no idea what they mean.

In answer to the question: one.

3

I have a brown belt in Shotokan Karate. The organizations my school belongs to (Japan Karate Association and International Amateur Karate Federation) expect a black belt to take five to ten years to earn. I’ve been studying about seven years, and I should probably make it within the ten years if I keep at it.

My son spent some time training at a nationally-syndicated strip mall karate school where they expected a black belt to take two years to earn.

I spent two years taking Tae Kwon Do in college, and they said it would take about three years to earn a black belt if I trained every quarter.

I have met and trained with well over a hundred black belts.

4

I don’t have a black belt and know very few people that do. This is mainly because all the styles I’ve trained seriously in don’t give belts. I have passed various level exams graded by Sifus, acted as senior student and assistant instructor, and done various other things which demonstrated my Sifus recognition of my status, but no colored belts anywhere to be seen.

I do know a few blackbelts from my exposure to Aikido and Ju Jitsu. In each case, the blackbelts earned their belts and are quite good. However, they are not “masters” and they shouldn’t be held to that standard. In those schools, blackbelts are awarded after several thousand hours of training and multiple grade tests to demonstrate skills, and all it really means is “serious student”. That is, a black belt is someone who has demonstrated he’s ready to learn, not someone who has already learned it all.

5

I know many “real” black belts, but then again I did 4 years of Kenpo. BTW, I’m just a second degree brown belt.

It depends, there is grade inflation in martial arts. I am generalizing here in this thread. Some martial art forms like Tai Kwon Do (please correct my spelling and understanding if incorrect), which emphasize complete mastery over a basic set of kicks, punches and blocks to reach what TKD considers “black” belt level. After attaining the first degree black belt, then they go into the specialized techniques. Think of it like an inverted pyramid. One perfects the first few levels, gets a black belt, then each subsequent level requires a much greater amount to learn and master.

My own sensei is a very serious black belt, but did not subscribe to the “official” Ed Parker Kenpo system, so I have no idea if he was pretty much mainstream Kenpo or not. That said, at least what I learned in Kenpo, was more like a pyramid. The first level was very broad and then narrows as you go up the rankings.

So, I did 4 years and reached second degree brown belt, so still had a first degree brown and then be able to test for the black belt. In some systems, I would be ranked at least a first degree black belt after studying for 4 years. It just depends on the sensei and the system. Much as I would like to say I’m a black belt, I didn’t earn it from my sensei, and thus I proudly say I’m a second degree brown belt. It only means something to those who know what my sensei required to reach that level.

At the end of the day, it’s not the belt but how good you are.

6

[quote]
I do believe that some schools, regional organizations, or even whole disciplines dispense black belts (or equivalent high ranks) too easily either because of lax standards perpetuated by lazy or incompetent instructors, or promotional processes are driven by profit rather than achievement. A third possibility is the eternal complaint that “kids just don’t want to work hard the way we used to,” and so we have had to “dumb down” standards.

[quote]

Being a black belt myself, I know quite a few people who are black belts and I have to say that every one of them earned it. It was not given to them.

I have to admit that there are other clubs that do tend to “give” them away. There’s even one club around Kalamazoo that will guarantee making black belt in 2 years. It’s a crock. They only teach how to tournament fight and not how to defend yourself.

Of course you see this in any organization like this. I was in Boy Scouts many years ago and it happened there. There were BSA troops that you knew you would learn something in, and there were troops that were “Eagle Factories”. The “Eagle Factories” always had kids earning top rank in 2 years, but where absolutely terrible leaders.

7

My brother’s sampai (teacher) was very serious about belt levels, and with good reason. His sensei (master) was Fumio Demura, head of the JKF (Japan Karate Federation).

I have seen too many bullshit belts over the years. I have seen high school students with black belts, and I’m sorry, but there is just no way to have the mental and spritual parts of the discipline mastered at age 16.

Easy advances in belt levels are just a gimmick to keep parents paying tuition at the strip mall. If you really want to study a martial art, a belt id the least of your concerns.

8

Well, I know quite a number of black belts, having taken a number of forms of martial arts over the years. But I haven’t dedicated more than a year to any one form which really doesn’t allow mastery in anything.

So two months ago, I started Kuk Sool. I really couldn’t tell you if it’s the best or not but, IMO, it seems to be the most complex of those I’ve trained in. The variety of techniques you learn at a very low level are amazing, and it takes dedication to learn them correctly.

This program, they say, takes about 4 years until you reach black belt. Hopefully I can keep it up that long.
Tomorrow I test for yellow stripe. oooooooooooh.

9

Cool. I’m going to start Kuk Sool soon.

10

I personally knew one, he was my best friend in high school. I would have asked him to train me some but he moved to Georgia a year after we met.

OTOH, I was also once friends with a guy who was a dead ringer for Howard Stern. Then the guy got a haircut and looked like Harold Ramis as Egon Spengler.

11

All is possible with great motivation. Have let it go- as many former black belts do- as the attendant sacrifices were getting to be too great. Also found many tip-tap tourament schools. My Sensei was a normal looking guy, but was very very very good. Scary good. I was good, and could do a great deal of damage in rapid order when I was training. Now I can defend myself if need be, but most likely it never will. Besides, its the journey, not the trip, which makes the martial arts special.

Hints- never study at a strip mall or anyplace which shows off a bunch of trophies. Also board breaking et al is silly. Boards don’t move, nor do they have angry friends . . .

I would like to get invovled again sometime. . .

-me

12

As far as I know, I don’t know any black belts at all. If my acquaintances have black belts in any martial arts, they aren’t telling me about it.

So far everyone else who has posted has been into the martial arts, so I thought I’d add the “man on the street” view.

13

elf6c, I’m not going to argue the pros or cons of strip mall dojos, but I am going to disagree about the board breaking. Board breaking tells you if you’re doing the techniques correctly. If I get into a fight, I’d want to know ahead of time if the way I’m kicking is going to break my foot in the process.
You can’t practice these things on a partner. Well, you can, but he or she only has 24 ribs so you’d need to find a steady supply of participants.

Ogre that’s cool. I think it’s kinda fun. Well, except for the crecent kicks. I don’t like how kuk sool does them.

14

I earned my yellow belt in Kempo at a “strip mall dojo.” I’ve never taken any martial arts classes at other dojos to compare with, but I was impressed by the quality of the school and instructors. There was only one black belt that looked like he was under twenty, and from what I saw he was good enough to deserve the belt. Most of the brown and black belts that I met there were thirty or older. I think they said that a black belt couldn’t be earned in under six years, and tests could only be taken after certain intervals. Most of the training was done with partners so I got to see how the moves worked, instead of just striking air. I would have liked to continue training there, but I was only in the area for the summer. I’m going to try to find another Kempo school when I go to college next year.

15

My schmuck-of-an-ex-fiance was a 1st degree black belt when we were together. Rumor has it he’s up to 2nd now. Took him a good long time, and even I have to admit he was impressive in tournaments.

Another ex was a black belt in TKD. Had nowhere near the skill that schmuckboy did, and his training seemed to increase his violent tendencies and lack of self-control.

I spent 3 years in TKD, and don’t feel I got much out of it. I never belt tested… that wasn’t why I was there… but the instructor did have a tendency to assembly-line students through the ranks. Spent another few years in Shotokan, which I found much more fulfilling on a skill and psychological level, and which took a minimum of 5 years for a black belt. My instructor was one of the top instructors in the country, and was one hell of a sexy guy which made training difficult at times. Sorry, just felt the need to throw that in.

I think the more ‘popular’ styles such as TKD have a higher incidence of assembly-line belts. It’s not limited to TKD, by any stretch of the imagination… those strip mall studios are in business for a reason.

-BK

16

I’ll be testing for my low blue belt in (WTF) Tae Kwon Do in two weeks. (At our do jhang, the ranks go No Belt, White Belt, Yellow Belt, Green Belt, Orange, Low Blue, High Blue, Brown, Purple, Red, Deputy Black, and Black.) If you meet your instructor’s approval, you can test every 2 months. You have to wait 6 months between deputy black and black to test.

My 9 year old son and I are studying at the YMCA, with instructors from one of the local belt-mills. (We test with the master at one of his strip mall locations.)

I have no illusions that either my son or I will become the next Bruce Lee. For me, it’s a fun fitness activity that I can share with my son. Since I also love cardio-kickboxing, it helps me hone my skills for that as well.

I would estimate that the program is about 70% kids. I think a lot of parents have their kids in there because it teaches them about goal setting, and having the discipline to work and follow through to achieve your goals. Respect for parents and elders is a big deal, too. At testing time, the Master also has students submit a copy of their last report cards so that he can comment on their achievement there as well.

Although I have my doubts about the quality of the 1st dan black belts that are churned out where I study, I do think that standards get more exacting once you start studying beyond that level. My usual instructor is a 2nd dan black belt, and he is VERY good. The master is a 7th dan black belt in TKD, and somewhere around that level in Hapkido. He was a coach for the US national team a few years back. (He also has to be raking in the dough. In addition to the fees for classes, you have to pay every time you test for a new belt - $40 a pop ($25 for additional family members testing at the same time.) He also holds tournaments every few months. You pay $40 to compete in an event ($20 for additional events.) You do the math…)

17

I know a few, at least four, and maybe more. They tend to be pretty quiet and reticent about discussing their standing. One that I know is a Sifu (Teacher. Probably spelled that wrong), and is only in his late 20’s (just got his doctorate, too!). He has two things in his life: School, and teaching. If I didn’t know how old he was, I’d think him 15 years older.

18

I have a blackbelt in Okinawan Gohaku-Kai Karate, which is an offshoot of Goju-ryu. We took it very seriously, including participating in cultural exchange programs with the head school in Okinawa. Average time for a blackbelt is probably 6-7 years, although some do it a bit sooner and some just never get there.

19

You might want to run that by Master Myong Pyoo Kim (there’s a site mentioning him here, and I’ll see if I can find more later), who started training at age four (was my instructor once in a while when I was in training) and earned his black belt significantly before I did (I was a black belt before I got to high school). It can be done. And it isn’t so much having everything in the art mastered as having enough of what’s been put in front of you mastered to fulfill the requirements. There are moves that 2nd and 3rd degrees did when I was in school some years ago that I couldn’t do at all.

Erica Gutman is another teacher I had when I was at the US Tae Kwon Do College in Fairfax.

Hmm. I can’t find much more about Master Kim, which is a pity because it’s a rather interesting story.

But in any case, I hold a black belt from the US Taekwondo College. I haven’t been to a practice in years partly due to going to high school a few hundred miles away and partly due to not really wanting to pick it up again now (lack of time, mostly).

20

I don’t know if I’m the target audience for this post or not, as most of those responding have a lot of personal experience with martial arts.

I don’t, though it is one of the things I’d like to get into soon. I probably can’t name the exact schools or disciplines they practice but I’ve known three (and still in touch often with two) who fit the bill. Two were also into competitions, one of whom went on to be national heavyweight kung fu sparring champ, appearing on ESPN in the process.

Another friend specialized in hung gar, and often sparred with Paul, above.

The one I’m no longer in touch with was an aikido practitioner.

I’m usually able to spot spurious claims, but don’t make anything of it. They just go down a few pegs in respect in my book.