Martial Arts Academy

My son has fallen under the spell of a local belt factory. And I got suckered. :wally

My son is 5 (and a half!) and needs to get out and do something. My wife has been big on “karate” for quite some time, so she toured one school with my son and he sat in one class and really liked it. We all went to another school and got hit by a well-oiled marketing machine in the form of a 5’2" Korean lady. I signed myself and my son up for four classes. On his third class (today) he broke a board and got a trophe. This was my second class, and I’ve been punching and kicking at pads and running and yelling and doing stuff I don’t do sitting in front of my computer at work. That would be good except that I feel like they’re bribing my son with trophes (he’s very excited about that trophe), he’s never won a trophe before! And they have a pretty hard sell too, we paid before we even watched a class! OK, that makes me wimpy I guess…

I’m not signing for a contract and we’re looking elsewhere and my (trophe winning board chopping 5 year old) son will have to get over it.

Hey, you’re gonna be smuggled over to MPSIMS, anyway, so I might as well grab ya’ while I’m passing through.

It is somewhat dismaying to see the state of karate schools today. My friend has two kids, ages 8 and 11, and they are both black belts. They have been with the school for less than 3 years. It’s all about making the kids feel like they have accomplished something great and sucking as much money out of the parents.

When I studied in the early 80’s, the school I attended had very strict rules regarding the black belt. You had to be at least 18 years old. You had to have studied a minimum of 10 years and you had to endure 8 hours of rigerous testing to acheive it. Most didn’t make it on their first try. Back then, a black belt was something you really had to work hard for because it meant something and carried a certain amount of responsiblility with it.

Also, the school had regular visits from the masters that they were affiliated with in Japan to ensure that they were keeping the quality standards high enough. If they didn’t like what they saw, they would remove their affiliation. It was a very big deal and taken seriously.

Nowdays, it’s all about money.

It’s actually tae kwon do, I meant to clarify that in the OP, that’s why I put karate in quotes. And I was trying to rant, but it didn’t quite come out that way. The feel good aspect worked on my kid, I was surprised at how well it worked, to tell you the truth.

There are good schools out there, you just have to find them. I was in Tae Kwon Do for a number of years (about 4 years or so). I made it to 2nd blue belt (one test away from 1st red). Testing was conducted by a panel of instructors from several schools, as part of their federation rules. No one instructor could simply promote on his own. The panel had to agree. There were no trophies or prizes for simply doing whatever your current belt or skill level required. Sure there will be tournament trophies for those who like competition but that’s just a side benefit. So, there are schools that are something more than certificate factories. It looks like your best bet is to look for whatever style you want - karate, kung fu, tae kwon do - and then see if these schools are part of a federation. They tend to maintain and demand a certain level of consistency and quality, and also they tend to keep contact with the “old country”.

There are federation organizations out there that have just as crappy standards as some of the individual classes that are out there.

I study Tang Soo Do and we had a woman come to our Do Jang who said she was a 2nd Dan. She gave us info about the instructor she had studied with as well as the association he was with, but when it came down to it, she had no technique, power or focus on any of her moves. Put simply, she was not up to OUR club’s 2nd Dan black belt standards, yet she came from a club with a strong association membership.

The fact of the matter is that quality will vary from one club to the next and the only way to find the club that is best for you is to beat feet out to different clubs and see what they do. If they won’t let you even look in on a class without joining, then they are just trying to get your money. If they focus more on what I like to call, “Militaristic Discipline” then you probably won’t learn a whole lot of good practical fighting techniques.

When people ask why I have been a shodan for over twentyfive years, I shrug my shoulders and change the subject. But it is stuff like this.

Judo, not tae kwon do, but rank inflation sux everywhere.

Regards,
Shodan (and likely to die at that rank)

Maybe I was just lucky? Still, my instructor seemed legit and made no bones about what level of performance was expected. He and the other black belts had no qualms about failing someone if they didn’t make the grade. But I have seen some supposed black belts from other schools that had no idea what they were doing. Rank inflation does nobody any good, it hurts the student and the school.

I studied Tae Kwon Do for about 3 1/2 years until I had a broken back. ( NOT related to TKD ). I was 2nd Deputy, which in their ranking was 2 below my First Dan Black Belt.

While I chafed at the idea of some of the more rapid testing turnarounds, the Master in the school was focused, upbeat, not a macho machine and intelligent. He articulated both technique and philosophy during all age classes, so that the students had a chance to absorb some things other than how to perfect a flying spin kick.

My children made their Jr. Black, and my wife made her 1st Dan Black Belt. The business side of how things were/are run makes me unhappy, but once you step onto the floor, it’s a pure experience. For a while another Master ran it, and the experience was impure and became abusive towards my kids ( the only two Korean children in the entire Do Jang ).

They have gone back to studying again, after more than 2 years away. They are working hard to re-earn their place, though they are given the respect a Black Belt should be shown.

It is, IMHO, a titanic scam inflicted upon non-Asians who do not know anything about martial arts programs and are suckered in by basic hustle, show and sham and mutterings about Korean/Japanese/Chinese mysticisms. I don’t cotton to that crap much. If you want me to buy into it, you had best believe it yourself and impart it honestly. The Master now does indeed, and I respect him.

Cartooniverse

My son takes karate (which is actually Tae Kwan Do from what I can tell) and while it has all the features you have discussed as being problematic (except for board breaking–no one who isn’t a high level black belt does that, and that seems to be a stunt they save for shows), we’re happy with it. I know what we signed up for–the self-discipline, the focus, the moral messages, the sense of accomplishment. We didn’t expect him to be able to go to the olympics and compete. Maybe it would be a scam if we weren’t realistic about what the place offers.

Belt promotion for someone his age (he’s six) mostly involves attendance–no promotion if absences aren’t made up. I think they threw some extra colors of belts in there, frankly, so kids could have a steady march towards brown. All kids also have to complete their belt form (together) before an audience and do a line drill individually before getting the new color. Older kids have fitness tests and homework, too.

They focus on working with the kids where they are and rewarding improvement more than mastery. The teaching is pretty good; they inspire me to do better as a parent.

My son will be a brown belt for two years before he can be promoted to junior black belt, and that’s with regular homework and some grueling “black belt camp” that sounds dreadful. I don’t know if we’ll stick with it that long, but it’s been a good thing thus far.

You can’t really judge a ‘good’ or ‘bad’ MA school: it all depends on the students and what they want. If it’s parents using the dojang as a substitute daycare to look after Little Johnny, and the wee ones need self-affirmation and a confidence boost, sure. Make it a belt factory. The worst that’ll happen is the kids’ self-esteem will be boosted, and it gets them off the sofa a bit.

On the other hand, that’s horrid for a traditional MA school, where the point is to learn a martial art and get good at it. An instructor boosting your self esteem has no place in a traditional gym: their job is to teach you and make you work your ass off. I find it especially amusing that TKD in America has developed such a ‘feel good’ following: it was originally used as nothing more than physical conditioning in the Korean army. The point was to make you work, hard: not to reward you for doing your best.

Really, though: If a parent’s pretty sure it’s good for the kid, and it gets someone up and moving, it can’t be that bad.

We’ve decided to not continue at this school, although I’m still rather conflicted about it. I’m just not sure what I want, I guess. NinjaChick, I agree that anything that gets kids up and moving and away from the TV can’t be all bad. And along the way they might pick up some personal discipline, some strength, some conditioning, heck maybe even some self defense skills. That would certainly be good for me!

But my worry is similar to grade inflation in regular school. If some 10yo is a black belt, what has he really learned? For instance, the fellow I “trained” with on Saturday was a black belt and has trained there for 4 or 5 years, he was approximately my age and at least one of his 4 kids trained there as well. The guy knew the basics, certainly well enough to train me, and looked to be in pretty good shape. Later on in the class, that day’s lead instructor was showing us the steps involved in the side kick. 1. knee up 2. pivot the other foot 3. kick out 4. kick back 5. back on the ground. He did each step slowly, paused and talked about it. He was on one foot and his balance was perfect and his voice was steady, no strain at all. I of course almost fell each time I tried it that slowly. Now, the black belt guy I trained with earlier also had some balance issues doing the kick that slowly. He did better than me, but still, shouldn’t black belt equate to expert? Shouldn’t he have had no troubl doing this kind of thing? But then, so what if my kid isn’t a real black belt, but has good personal discipline, is respectful and is in really good shape?

CrankyAsAnOldMan, I like your attitude, I wish I could adopt it.

I have really, fianlly decide by Tuesday night. And honestly,the biggest deciding factor has to do with the the fact that driving there is a pain in the butt. It’s not that close and we go at 6:30 and traffic is horrible.

<sigh> I love being so decisive.

I have an amateur radio license, which meant taking an FCC test. But, that license in no way means that I am a good operator. That requires practice and real-world experience. I am starting to take the same attitude towards some of the younger black belts I’ve seen: You’re going to have to prove to me that you are an Nth Dan, otherwise you’re just not going to get the quality of respect you think you deserve. It has been a long time since I’ve been in a TKD class (the last one was the TDK club at university), so I haven’t seen the club phenomenon first-hand. However, I have heard of teens and pre-teens with black belts after only two or three years, and I have a hard time believing they are as skilled as older people who took 5 years.

Vlad/Igor

As a school owner, I have to agree with a lot of what you have said.

The emphasis over the last 5 years or so has changed to money, money, money. And some more money. And instructors like me, who try to balance the business aspect of having to pay the rent vs. the somewhat old-fashioned (these days) idea that I am supposed to provide quality training to my students, are now looked down on. I’ve actually had someone in my organization totally blow me off with a comment of, “And how many students did you test last year? I tested over 600.”. And they got really pissed off when I replied, “That’s nice. How many of them actually learned something?”.

Yes, it would be real easy to start using the used-car sales tactics that are advocated these days. Yes, it would be real easy to go to block teaching; hell, it would make my life a lot easier if I did. But does that benefit the students? I don’t think so. Do I want 300 students in my school? The money would roll in if I had them. And I would turn out crappy technicians. I’d rather have 100 students, just enough to pay the bills, pay down some debt and take a little money out of the school instead of putting money in. And I would have excellent students who would be martial artists, not people who paid 8,000 clams and got a two inch wide piece of black cloth.

I trained in Kuk Sool Won, a Korean martial art for about 6 years. I loved it, and one of the reasons why was that it was HARD…

Once you had trained, if you trained regularly and worked on what you were supposed to with any degree of dedication, you would be ready to start black belt testing in about 3 years. You would test a minimum of 3 times for your 1st degree, and each time after that you would be graded and told where you needed to improve.

I knew a guy in our school that had 8 stripes, indicating 7 black belt tests before he finally got his belt. He was hard core, but had balance issues that took him a while to get through.

I meet these 15 year old kids who are 4th and 5th black belts in TKD or somesuch, and it just makes me laugh… not at them, as they could probably kick my spine out, but that the belts appear to be fairly easy to get, in comparison. My old instructor had been doing KSW for over 20 years, and he was a 4th degree.
As for belt vs. ability…

I was a Dahn Bo Nym, a brown belt with one black stipe. My next testing would have been the start of my black belt testing… and I stopped. But I have a wealth of knowledge in my head. Last year, I was taking a TKD/Hapkido class (mistake!) and while I am not a the thin jumping bean I used to be, I still know what a proper spin kick looks like and what can be done to improve on it for someone with less experience.

While it’s nice to be a black belt that can do all the amazing things the rank would indicate, I find that a good knowledge base and knowing all the things well is more important than being able to do a textbook move.

The best experience that I’ve had has been with a beltless & rankless school. I realized that at a certain point, I am training for me, and that is enough. I’m not training to seek validation from others.

I think that concept is something that is hard for kids however, they love the shiny trophies and belts and patches. As long as the carrot/stick approach is used as a responsible motivator for children, instead of as a revenue stream for the school, then I have no problem with it.

Just this June I received my black belt in Kuk Sool Won. It took me a little less than 4 years. There were only two black belt tests to earn it, though I hear they require three for second degree.

Our instructor is fairly dedicated to the martial art. His career is as a professor so he and his family runs the school mostly in the evenings, taking up his spare time.

Would I say I was the most dedicated student to earn the black belt? No, probably not. But as an adult I can set my own pace for learning and dedicate myself to improving that which interests me. What’s fascinated me is the mechanics of the body, the pressure points and the various ways that joints can turn. Taking the time to learn that (central in Kuk Sool Won) can help develop a lot of skills, even if I still suck at doing pushups or low spin kicks.

I wouldn’t argue with the fact that many martial arts schools are belt factories. To some degree, KSW is as well even though it’s an international organization. Some would argue that it’s because of that, that it is. But I like the school enough that I’ve been going there close to a year up in Lawrence depite living in KC, 40 minutes away.

So there are good schools out there. Find a type of martial art that interests you and then find instructors you think will challenge you.