How much blame do the citizens of Gaza deserve?

My principle is based on whether one is doing more good than harm. Although American civilians didn’t necessarily benefit by our involvement in WWII, many other people did.

Cool! Even though for the time being people are afraid to take advantage of it, this is the sort of thing that helps over the long run.

True enough. The Israeli people were understandably angry and would be upset if they didn’t get retaliation. The government knows what it has to do to be popular. But retaliation doesn’t make anybody better off. It’s a sad situation.

World of Warcraft! Awesome! It’s the best idea I’ve seen yet :slight_smile:

By the way, for those reading along, I’d like to cite Israel’s Supreme Court on the complete failure of the ICJ to perform due diligence and consider military necessity.

For the mods, I’d like to point out that the source of the document lists it as being in the public domain, so I am going to quote the entire relevant passage.
"This introduction [which I have not quoted at all -Finn] is copyright © 2005 by Ami Isseroff and Zionism-Israel Information Center. The source document below is in the public domain. "

The whole text is too long to post, so I’m going to cut some.

I kinda like how lawyers can make their point without using the word “kangaroo” even once. :wink:

No such evidence has been provided. Genocide was the proposition in question. Detailed reasons in the preceding post. (The short-hand way to the conclusion I usually use is to inquire as to the Hamas response should the Jewish population of Israel simply up and leave for another continent.)

Genocide is the most serious accusation. Of course it is an extraordinary claim. Not that it needs overwhelming evidence or proof, merely evidence commensurate with the claim.

I realize that to address the question as normal, by reference to available evidence does put you in difficult position: Either;

  • As a person of integrity, you conclude the claim is not made out. Thereby bringing into question the integrity of all voiced support for Israel; or
  • Guided by loyalty, you defend a claim which is not borne out by the evidence.

In general the latter choice is made. The reasoning is ‘the holocaust’, as yours is here.

The evidence is that like in every other genocide in recent history Hamas is:

  1. Saying it wants to kill all the Jews.
  2. Has supporters willing to kill Jews because they are Jewish.
  3. Dehumanizes Jews.
  4. Spreads lies about Jews using propaganda.

Why is this not enough for you?

This is enough for me. The problem is that the evidence is imaginary. Show me:

Hamas: ‘We want to kill all the Jews.’

Doesn’t sound like too much to ask, does it? Simple, straightforward declarative sentence is all I ask for. Not 4 points, but one.

While I’m loathe to support **Sev **in this, this is not “We’re going to kill all the Jews”. It’s emphatic appeal to God - Fred Phelps does the same.

Arabic speach and culture are very fond of elaborate, exagerated forms as well, so there’s that too - remember that intrinsic context and meaning is lost in translation when one’s not familiar with the original culture. I’m not claiming it’s the case here mind you, but I wouldn’t rule it out either, unless you’re really familiar with the language & culture.

Oh, I should point out that I found that by googling hamas kill all the jews. It’s not like I was trying hard.

I threw out the Danish Hamas supporters yelling, specifically, “We want to kill all the jews” because, well, Copenhagen isn’t Palestine.

(missed the edit window)

Point in case : when Patton said “we’re going to murder the Hun by the fucking bushel, and not just shoot them but rip out their living guts and use those to grease the treads of our tanks !” he didn’t, y’know, actually *plan *on doing so. I’m quite certain there were no gut-greasing incidents during Patton’s campaigns :slight_smile:

When Hitler said he wanted a final solution to the Jewish problem, do you equally think he didn’t mean it?
You can do your own research if you like, but this gives excerpts from the Hamas Charter:

Etc etc. You are free to slog through the whole charter of course and to see if these selected excerpts are accurate or have been taken out of context. I haven’t read the charter myself in a while, but afaik Hamas has never taken out the ‘kill the Jews!’ parts from it’s original charter, though they have toned it down a bit and attempted to obscure their meaning (somewhat).

YMMV, but I don’t think this is the same kind of thing as Paton talking about greasing the treads of his tanks with the guts of the Germans.

-XT

Guys, you don’t understand Sev.

His claim isn’t that Hamas doesn’t want to kill or exile all the Jews in Israel. He’ll clearly agree that they do. His claim, such as it is, is that Hamas and their ilk have no designs toward Jews living *outside *of Israel, and therefore, according to his logic, have nothing against Jews in general. Furthermore, he believes that killing or exiling all the Israeli Jews would not count as genocide (unlike killing or exiling all the Palestinians, for some reason), because such an action would leave Jews alive elsewhere in the world. That’ because to him, we Israelis are not a nation per se, but merely a colony of International Jewry.

Am I right, **Sev **old buddy?

Oh, I think I understand Sev perfectly, Alessan. I’ve seen him in more than a few of these threads in the past after all.

-XT

Yes, yes, I know - but here I see fighting words, war words. Not necessarily genocide words, know what I mean ?
“The Jews are our enemy and we will fight them until we win” isn’t equivalent to “Jews are an inferior race that should be purged off this Earth, and we’ll do it, and here’s how”. Jihad doesn’t entail nor mean genocide - just war. They’re not talking about solving the Jewish problem, but taking back what they think is theirs by force. Victory seems to be defined by “we rule over the whole country”, not “every last Jew is dead”

Point in case :

Of course, it’s silly of them to say coexistence is only possible through their religion’s principles, but that’s fundies for you.

I admit the “Zionist conspiracy” bits of that link scare me much more, though. That’s an entirely different kettle of fish. Someone really ought to tell them the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are and were bogus from day one. Don’t they have a Dope equivalent ? Jews profiteering from WW2 ? Nazi Jews ? Come on now. That’s ignorance begging to be fought, right there :slight_smile:

Ah yes, but this new twist is awesome.

Now we have a demand that if people can read Hamas’ public statements and the charter in context, then it must only be out of ‘loyalty’ to Israel.
But if they’re willing to ignore Hamas’ direct calls to genocide and conclude that charge is false, why by gum, then they have to challenge each and every single other thing Israel says.

Neat deal.

And of course, I wonder how the argument would be received if someone said that the Israeli hard liners don’t have anything against the Palestinians, because they’d be happy if the Palestinians just left and moved to another continent.

And when Phelps starts launching rockets and sending suicide bombers into San Fransisco while trying to raise a military force sufficient to overthrow the state and take control himself, it’d be legitimate to think that he’d passed the stage ‘just words’.
Likewise, Patton really did intend to kill as many Nazis as he could as long as they were fighting, he was just exaggerating what would be done with their bodies.

Every time this debate come up (since its the Dope of course) someone will disagree. But here’s the question that needs to be asked, then: what would it take to get you to accept that when Hamas differentiates between Jews, Judaism and Israel and says it wants to kill all the Jews, that it’s serious? In short, is there any way that you’d take Hamas at its word?

Yes, like the quote about killing every last Jew on the planet is not, as sev distorted the issue, about God’s support for anti-Zionism, but rather Islamic eschatology and the belief that the Day of Resurrection will not come about until Muslims kill all the Jews on the planet. And by endorsing that religious view, especially as a theocratic movement, Hamas was making clear what their perfect Islamic world would entail. And as pointed out, while they talk about how everybody can live just fine under their theocratic brand of Islam as long as they aren’t enemies of Islam, they also make quite clear that Judaism, Jews and Israel all are enemies of Islam.

Not really, no. Especially when put in the context of their actual actions and public statements they have made in the past I think it’s fairly clear exactly what they meant in their charter.

The problem is that they didn’t say either of the things you put in quotes. What they DID say was pretty clear and really didn’t need embellishment or analogies that don’t really illustrate what was said.

Actually, jihad means struggle.

They are talking about taking back by force what was never theirs and going through the Jews in the region to do so. You are kidding yourself here IMHO. While I concede that it’s possible that once they have destroyed the Israeli defense and basically wiped out most or all of the Jews in the region (in their dreams anyway), they will probably be content to stop at that point and not, say, pursue the Jews in the US or Europe at that point. Will be cold comfort to all the dead Jews in Israel and the region though, ehe? And this was EXACTLY the intention of the original Arab armies and the Palestinian’s during the initial war of independence and the later clashes as well.

What proofs do you put forth that this has changed? Obviously it hasn’t in their charter. Or their public speeches. So…what are you basing your opinion on here that Hamas doesn’t REALLY mean what they seem to quite plainly say they mean?

And you base this assertion on what exactly? Where does Hamas go into details about what exactly they would do to the Jews if they DID manage to rule over the whole of the country (that is different than what they say in their charter)? Or are you channeling them or something? I’m genuinely curious where you are getting this all from.

-XT

I’m not saying Hamas doesn’t want to overthrow the state of Israel and take control by force, I never said so. In fact I said the exact opposite. I may be candid, but not *that *candid :). But in and of itself, that’s not genocide.

Key word being “as long as they were fighting”.

I’m not sure what you’re asking here. What’s that about differentiating between Jews, Judaism and Israel ?
In any case, I fully acknowledge that Hamas intends or wishes to kill anyone (not just Jews) standing between them and power over the entire country - but again, that’s the definition of war, or armed insurrection if you prefer, not genocide. If they did say “We will never let any Jew live here, ever”, then I’d agree with you.

But what I read in the quotes provided and their Wiki page is “We will never let the Jews or anyone else *rule *here”.

Different kinds of crazy.

On the very quotes and link you provided. “we won’t renounce an inch of the land of Palestine”, “we have to fight against the invasion” and so on. They go on at length about the evils of Zionism, but Zionism isn’t Judaism, it’s not even Judaism in the Levant.

They don’t - that’s the point. They’re focused on gaining power at all cost, not on the aftermath. That’s their entire raison d’être : abolish Israel and create an Islamic state there in its stead. But an Islamic Sunni state isn’t inherently a kill-Jews-on-sight state either - witness Iran.

Hamas are violent and dangerous extremists, they’re fundamentalists as well, and they have the same visceral hatred of the state of Israel as every other Muslim fundie out there - but genocidal antisemites they possibly aren’t.

Not that it really matters anyway, when all is said and done. They don’t have the numbers or means to concretize their vision, and never will, even if all the neighbouring Arab states shared it and helped them (which isn’t the case).

Well, leaving aside that there is and never was a Palestine, wouldn’t that mean they will fight until they control everything? Which sort of means that they will continue to fight as long as the Jews are there, no? Whether they couch that in terms of ‘Zionism’ or not, the reality is that they are going to keep fighting until they control everything. I’m not very sanguine about the survival of many (or any) Jews in the region if they were ever able to gain the upper hand to the extent that they retook all of the fictional land of Palestine.

You are making several assumptions in all this that are simply based on projection. You say Hamas hasn’t thought about the aftermath but offer no proof of this. You state that they don’t plan on wiping out the Jews in the region and offer as proof of this assertion the fact that Iran hasn’t killed all of it’s Jews.

The reality here is that no one knows what Hamas would do if they ever got their way…but I doubt it would be pretty, even if they didn’t decide to give ethnic cleansing a try. And the other reality is that Hamas is going to keep fighting, to keep trying to subvert and destroy Israel until they gain control of that entire region…which means in realistic terms pretty much indefinitely. They won’t stop until they have control of ever scrap of what they think Palestine was, no matter what Israel does.

They are possibly not really human either, but instead some kind of alien/mule hybrid. But I’d say the odds are that they are exactly what their actions and words say they are. YMMV of course but I think you really need to stretch to make a lot of the assumptions you are using in your assertions. And the thing is…why should anyone, especially Israel, take the chance on ‘possibly aren’t’…

-XT

Not getting over this again. The point is that this region of the world is very important in the Muslim faith, and they feel (rightly or wrongly) that Muslims should control it. Christians did too, and Jews do as well. Each religious group has fought the others based on that claim at some point or other. It’s not rational, but that’s religion for you.

It’s not in their charter, or on the Wiki page. If you have details on the exact nature of the state they wish to establish, what it’s policies would be and so on, I’m eager to see them. But as it is, I really don’t think they’ve thought it through.

I’m not stating anything. I’m saying I don’t see the unequivocal call for genocide you see in their texts. Nor was I putting Iran forward as proof of Hamas good ultimate intentions, it was merely a point showing Islam’s, even fundamentalist Islam’s, even fundamentalist Sunni Islam’s (which is their denomination) lack of inherent antisemitism. Iran doesn’t just not kill all of it’s Jews - they’re equal wrt. the law, can worship freely, don’t face violence and don’t seem to want to leave in a hurry either.

On this we can certainly agree.

Well, the thing is, if neither group takes the chance to trust the other (and here I’m not thinking of Hamas in particular, but Palestinians as a whole), there’s going to be fighting for a long long time. Which, quite frankly and cynically, is what I expect will happen. The situation is utterly fucked for both people, and I won’t live to see the time when it is even marginally unfucked. Signs definitely point to linear increase in fuckage.

I don’t know what methods were tried. In order to support your assertion that Israel tried every other method and failed, leaving it with no choice but the building of the separation wall in its current position as an indisputable military necessity, you’d have to list all possible methods of protecting Israeli civilians, show that no other methods of protection were possible, and show that Israel had done everything possible by every other method.

These are all highly debatable issues. Which is why when you categorically assert that Israel is indisputably justified in its actions and no rational diifference of opinion is possible, you come across as dogmatic, biased, and unconvincing.