One of my mates is Head of Personnel at a company that hires for all sorts of jobs, including computing.
If your CV is handwritten (or has spelling mistakes etc) it goes straight in the bin.
If you don’t dress smartly to the interview (or turn up on time etc), you don’t even make the shortlist, let alone get the job.
The point is that each vacancy usually attracts many applicants. If you won’t make an effort, WHEN THE REQUIREMENTS ARE CLEAR, then you just simplify it for the employer, who can forget about you and concentrate on the others.
Personally I dislike ties. But I wear them on formal occasions to meet the expectations of the employer (or host).
Uh, because sometimes other people’s opinions and feelings are important. Caring about other people means caring about what they think. If a prospective employer thinks that you’re a bum, you’re not going to get the job. If your friend thinks that you wore a sweatsuit to her formal party just to embarass her, you’re going to make her unhappy.
The way i was raised was that you dress appropriately. If it’s a wedding, you wear at least a nice button down shirt and a pair of dockers or something (no one i know requires dress to be THAT formal). On job interviews, i dress in a pair of nice pants, and one of my button down shirts. However with my current job i’m allowed to wear pretty much what i want. Here’s a breakdown of how i dress and what situations:
Daily/Work: either jeans and t-shirt or one of my button down shirts to work. I work with college students (student assistant for Admissions and Records) and they prefer us to be comfortable, because we get up and down, have to sit on the floor to file, and it’s a warm office all the time. Plus, they feel it makes the students feel a bit more comfortable if we are dressed casually. I can wear more dressy stuff if I want. I can even wear shorts and sandals if I like.
Weekends: jeans and t-shirts usually, or if it’s warm and sunny enough shorts.
Formal events: whatever is designated by the host.
Personally, if i was hiring for a job, and someone came in wearing jeans and a t-shirt, i’d think they didnt care too much about getting hired or not. If i took the time to plan a nice formal event and my guests came in t-shirts and jeans, i’d sort of feel that they didnt care about how much time/planning it took me to throw the event together.
It all depends on what’s generally perceived as appropriate. Simple. Nothing more than that.
Dress conveys an instant message and the codes are clear. Geek-chic messiness is just as much a code as any other, btw. Whether it’s vampire goth, C&W tight jeans, neo-hippie, academic tweed and khaki or whatever–they’re all just as much dress codes as any other. They’re costume extremes but they’re still dress codes too.
The fear and loathing over “dressing up” is vastly overrated IMO. Deliberately dressing inappropriately doesn’t equate rugged individualism. Mostly it just implies carelessness or obliviousness–and any danged fool can be either. Or both.
Frankly there just aren’t many situations anymore where it’s prohibitively expensive or traumatic to make at least a polite nod toward prevailing codes. (“White tie” event? You’re screwed but otherwise…) To my eye, the people who look best are the ones who hit middle ground while maintaining a sense of individuality. The best dressed woman I know knocks together Goodwill and secondhand-shop stuff. She always looks right–and somehow simpler, more comfortable and more individual.
Dressing appropriately isn’t faking anything. It just demonstrates an awareness of other people–and enough flexiblity of self to adapt a little.
“Dressing appropriately isn’t faking anything. It just demonstrates an awareness of other people–and enough flexiblity of self to adapt a little.”
—Exactly. Those who go screaming from the hilltops that they will NEVER wear a suit or a nice dress seem to have huge chips on their shoulders. I suspect SOMEONE has been given the Bum’s Rush from the Merion Cricket Club . . .
I have no problem with that. If it is a work environment where style is important, that I have no interest in working there. I believe that there is one and only one factor in someones hire-ability, their ability to do the job. Now personality is a factor in someones ability to do their job, because it is a very rare job that can be done with zero communication, and if someone is unable to work with other people, then they won’t be able to do the job as well. But apperance should not be a factor.
That is exactly what I’m saying and I say it loud and proud. I personally don’t see a lot of difference between saying, “you should go out and spend money on clothes so people find you more appropriate” and you “should go out and spend money on liposuction and a nose job so people think you look more appropriate”. Now I realize that the second is different in that it involves personal risk, but the first is just a lower degree of the same eliteism based on apperance and economics that I find disgusting.
That’s an interesting point. However if someone invites me to an event then I’ll assume they want me to be confortable and enjoy myself. If they don’t then it’s get chalked up as a failed experiment on both our parts, and won’t get repeated.
Once again it’s a fine line between adapting a little and conforming like a mindless sheep. There is a lot more harm caused in this world from people trying to ‘adapt themselves to society’; eating disorders, running up tremendous debt, then there is from personal slobbery
Unfortunately yes. And I have no delusions that it will ever change, or that anybody is going to change their views because of my disgust with the whole thing. But I will never join the game, because I think it is very harmful.
That’s fine. But in certain jobs appearance does factor into a persons ability. Appearance is one method of communicating to others. Why don’t you see too many fat personal trainers? Its because no one wants to take fitness advice from someone who looks like they don’t know the least bit about taking care of themselves. The same holds true in business. A CEO is not going to listen to me if I look like I just rolled out of bed. If I can’t pay attention to details like matching my pants and shirt, what other details might I miss?
Of course, most of this is perception. But why make my job harder than it needs to be?
That’s a good way to win friends. Basically what you are saying is “I am so self centered and inflexible that I refuse to take part in your tradition of dressing up for your special occasion. I am however willing to take part in the open bar at your reception”. If you truly are against dressing up for a special occasion like a weding, you should not attend at all.
Why not just say “I don’t see why I need to wear pants at all to satisfy you”? Or how about “I don’t need to drop the duce (defecate) in one of your fancy pants toilets. I’ll just go where I please”?
No one said you have to wear a $1000 Brooks Brothers or Armani suit. Go buy one at Sears for $80. One of my coworkers did that for an emergancy sales meeting and it looked fine.
If you came to my weding like that, I’d ask you to leave. Experiment over. I’d want you to have a good time but I don’t want you showing up looking like a homeless guy any more than I want you to take a nap on the table.
There is also a fine line between nonconformity and being an obstinant pain in the ass. Nonconformity for its own sake is just as bad as being a mindless sheep.
I’m sorry, but you’re flat-out wrong here. First off, there are at least two factors, ability to do the job AND the ability to not negatively affect coworker’s job performance. You could be brilliant at your job, but if you’re such a pain to work with that nobody else can get anything done, you’re in trouble.
And if the choices you make about your appearance are enough to cause a lasting distraction among coworkers, well, the hiring manager is going to take that into consideration.
But that’s not all. Not only does your appearance start you in the hole with your manager’s opinion of you, but it puts the company you work for in a hole whenever you represent them to somebody from outside. A potential customer getting a tour of the building sees you and thinks less of the company for allowing you to be seen dressed like that, etc.
It’s even a double standard. If I’m interviewing you, I’m going to be in (matching, clean) shorts and a t-shirt. But I’m expecting you to be dressed at least one level more formal than me (dress pants, dress shirt), or I’m going to take it as an insult.
In all of this, you don’t state your general age or what sort of jobs you have held. But I would recommend reviewing your interview-clothing policy if you plan on making any serious money. (Hey, there goes your “spend money on clothes” theory, if you dress better, you can get considered for higher-paying jobs…)
The thing is, though, that even if the job is going to be one where casual or semi-casual dress is acceptable, you’re still supposed to dress neatly for your interview. Take me for example, I had two interviews in the last week (I was offered the first job and I’m turning it down, but that’s another story. Maybe a pit thread…) since the jobs I’m interested in are going to be casual dress- working with small children is messy- I didn’t dress up elaborately, instead chose a dressy blouse and cotton slacks, so while I’m not over-dressed I did look as though I chose my outfit with care. If the job you’re applying for is going to be casual attire, wear a button down shirt and slacks, if it’s not casual wear a suit. The message of what you’re wearing is supposed to convey respect, and t-shirts and jeans don’t. A couple of hours of uncomfortable clothes and a new job are much better than wearing your most comfortable clothes and not getting called back.
That’s exactly what I said in the part of my quote you left out. And if someone is going to be distracted by my wearing a t-shirt to the point where they can’t do their jobs, then they are really crappy employees. And once again I’m not interested in working at the kind of place where they would fire me because someone else is a flake.
That is pretty much what I’m talking about. A wedding should be about celebrating two people who have decided to spend thier lives together. That is what I choose to celebrate when I go to a wedding. But you think that sentiment should be after the main priority of wardrobe. As a matter of fact my friends appreciated the honesty of me wearing what I was confortable in. They knew that I went because I wanted to go, rather than the automatic obligation reflex that many of their guests had.
It’s kind of a self-correcting deal. If that is how you feel about things like that, then it is unlikely that we would be freinds to the degree where you would invite me to your wedding.
Actually I have a nice job as a prgrammer/DBA where my boss pays me lots of money because I know my shit and I’m good at my job. He also gives us other inappropriate stuff like a fridge full of beer and big offices normaly reserved for management. I’m so glad I never took a job at one of those places that wanted me to dress up.
I don’t believe anyone is saying “Go out and spend a lot of money on clothes.” Or, if they are, then I’m right with you.
But, there is an idea that when something is special, you put forth your best. You put forth special effort, you show “this matters to me,” by cooking special food and using your best dishes (not someone else’s best, that’s pretentious, but your best which is honorable), or working at your highest level, or using your best language - and if the occasion calls for it, dressing in your best clothes. Etiquette does not call for laying out money, it does call for a sense of the appropriate, which you seem to lack and be proud of lacking.
Chances are, if it were my wedding and you showed up in a t-shirt and jeans, I’d be too busy to notice. However, if we we were both guests at a wedding, and you showed up like that, I’d think that you didn’t care much about the couple and were just there 'cause you didn’t have anything better to do that evening and there was an open bar. I would think much better of someone who looked as though they tried, even if their outfit cost less than your t-shirt and jeans.
I won’t think you’re less of a person if you don’t dress well, but I, myself, will dress up, because I suspect that most people don’t share my tendency to entirely block the way a person looks while getting to know him/her.
Oh yeah, and I agree that once you are dressed-up and well-groomed, you earn a decent amount of pretty-points (works esp. well for men).
wolfman, here’s an analogy that may work for you: if you went to a wedding and it was catered, not with champagne and French cuisine from the finest restaurant in town, but cans of Diet Coke and a pile of Quarter Pounders from McDonald’s, what would you think the hosts were trying to say? And would you enjoy the event just as much?
Wolfman, I find your attitude terribly self centered. You want society to bend and accept your dress code, which is basically ‘I wear whatever makes me feel good, period. And everyone else can take a long walk off a short pier if they don’t like it.’ It shows me that you think only of you, not of anyone else.
I wouldn’t be caught dead wearing anything less than my best suit to a wedding (a tux is better, IMHO). Why? Because I am showing respect to the bride and groom, that’s why. Are those clothes comfortable? Not really, but I feel that a little discomfort on my part is a small price to pay to be respectful of a very special occasion.
I’ve got to agree with Cheesy on this, its not your wedding its your friends wedding and if they would like their guests to be smartly dressed then its not like your selling your soul to wear a suit. As for the comfort thing, dang, buy some clothes that fit! I wear suits much of the time at work and a lot of the time when I go out in the evenings and I sure ain’t uncomfortable. The days of starched collars and whalebone corsets are long gone.
“wolfman, here’s an analogy that may work for you: if you went to a wedding and it was catered, not with champagne and French cuisine from the finest restaurant in town, but cans of Diet Coke and a pile of Quarter Pounders from McDonald’s, what would you think the hosts were trying to say? And would you enjoy the event just as much?”
—Bad analogy, Fiver, I think this is exactly the kind of wedding our wolfie would enjoy . . . He seems to have a huge chip on his shoulder and a real hatred for what he considers to be “the upper classes.” Reverse snobbery, and just as narrow-minded and antisocial.
It’s gotta be a give and take, wolfman. It sounds like you are going out of your way not to fit in.
Also, I’m wondering just how comfortable you could possibly be at a wedding-type affair when you KNOW others are looking at you unfavorably… that would make me feel quite uncomfortable.
What the hell’s being ugly have to do it? If anything, this should provide motivation TO dress up, level the playing field.
I don’t actually agree with wolfman on this, but I can see his point of view - because I think I may be in the same boat, looks-wise.
I’m going to a job interview tomorrow. You can rest assured that I will be bathed, clean-shaven, perfumed (well, OK, deodourized), and wearing a clean suit, clean shirt, collar and tie. Will I look good in this outfit? No, I will not. I will look like a 300 lb. bag of camel droppings, same as I usually do - only, this time, a 300 lb. bag of camel droppings in a suit.
So, I can sympathize here… if you know you’re not going to look good no matter how much effort you make, then the temptation not to make any effort is hard to resist.
(But, in a social setting, you do have to consider the feelings of others. So, if it’s appropriate, yes, you dress up.)
No it wasn’t. You said that that personality and communication was a factor, I said that being a disruptive influence was a factor. “personality” and “communication” are two parts of being “disruptive”, but are far from the whole shebang.
Yeah, programmers are still one of the few classes of people who can get away with looking like slobs at work. (Like I said, my normal work uniform is shorts and a T-shirt as well.) And, in that line of work, it is socially acceptable to dress as you do on the job.
But I still say that if you show up for an interview with me wearing a t-shirt, I’m taking that as a sign that you have a disruptive personality, that you’re disrespecting the job I’m offering, and you’d have to be damned good (especially in our country’s current economic environment, where it is fairly easy to find non-disruptive damned good programmers on the street) to get considered for the job.
