How much do clothes matter?

In My Humble Opinion
41

Actually, I think WOLFMAN’s posts nicely illustrate what is for me the fundamental problem with inappropriate casual dress: It is at bottom all about selfishness. The person who insists on wearing their own personal uniform to every event, be it jeans and T-shirt, or a ball gown, or a sheet toga with a tinfoil hat, is implicitly stating what WOLFIE has explicitly stated here: I care more about my own comfort than I do about how others feel. Doesn’t matter to me if I could acknowledge the specialness of an event such as a wedding by dressing differently than I would to run to 7-11. Doesn’t matter if I could acknowledge the gravity and/or sanctity of a place such as a court, synagogue, or church, or an occasion such as a funeral, by dressing soberly and neatly. Doesn’t matter to me if I could reflect that I understand and appreciate the effort that went into an occasion such as a party by myself making an effort to look nice. No, no – Death Before Discomfort, and the hell with the rest of you!

People who dress inappropriately, especially inappropriately casually, as as much as stating “I cannot be bothered to make an effort for you.” I absolutely respect a person’s right to make such a statement, but I don’t have to spend my time with people who are so surpassingly selfish they truly don’t care if they offend others or not. So, no, you won’t be working in my office or attending my wedding, since it is clear you would be much happier enjoying your casual self in the privacy of your own home.

And spare me the talk about this being a matter of “principle.” The only principle it reflects is “My feelings over yours.”

42

After thinking about this for a bit I recalled a entertaining episode I witnessed once in court.

I was waiting to prosecute a case and the deputy called for anyone wishing to plead guilty to traffic violations to come forward. The judge made quick work of that group and then the deputy began calling the names for contested cases.

A young man, probably about 20 years old, approached the bench looking like he had just rolled out of bed - baggy jeans, untied sneakers, tee shirt, couple of day’s beard, hat on backwards, the whole nine yards. Added to that was what we called “the pimp roll” - that walk and attitude that showed that he couldn’t be bothered less about being in court. The judge looked at him and, before the young man could even open his mouth, said “Young man, you are disrespecting my authority and my court room by appearing before me looking like that. You can either go home and change your clothes and come back or I’ll find you in contempt and send you to jail where you won’t have the opportunity to decide what you wear - you’ll be issued an orange jumpsuit emblazoned with “City Jail” on the back. What’s your pleasure?” He wisely took the judge up on his offer and appeared a couple hours later in a pair of slacks, collared shirt, clean shaven, and with much less attitude.

43

THis reminds me of one of the senior projects that was shown at my school’s senior project film fest. This film was all about appearances and how others percive people based on the way they looked. One couple who were like neo-hippies were lamenting the fact that they had to go to court dressed up. The woman was complaining how she couldnt wear her flowing hippie dresses, and said it was unfair that it mattered in court how they were dressed (they were fighting for custody of the man’s children).

What she didnt get is that in court dressing nicely means you respect the court. It wasnt about them being ostracized for dressing like individuals. Like Wolfman, they had no clue that dressing appropriately signals that you give resprct. I found the two to be pretty selfish and self centered just from their statements.

44

Yeah lets get rid of the whole “facts” and “blind justice” part of the equation. We can speed up the whole judical process by just basing guilt or innocence on the price of the shoes you wear. That judge is a disgrace. If the guy was innocent of whatever traffic charge was brought against him the he should be cleared. If not then the charge should stand.

Sanctity and gravity should be within the heart. Implying that a place can be made more holy or important by the clothes you wear demeans the factors trhat made it holy or special in the first place.

I never said anything about the upper classes. I do have a great disgust toward elitists.

What give and take are you talking about. I couldn’t care less what anybody else wears to any occasion. I do my best to ignore their clothes and see the person they are. I think I am mostly sucessful but I have to admit I am far far from acieving a true non judgemental nature.

Yep. People should accept my dress code. They should accept other peoples dress codes whatever they happen to be.

Great. Showing respect to the event is one the only reason anybody should go. If you show respect by wearing great clothes, thats fine. I show respect by being as honest as posible. And I could never feel honest when wear something that doesn’t feel natural to me.

I totally care if I offend others. Those who take offense at the way I dress are the ones who I mean to offend.(I wanted to post a quote(Churchill?) that perfectly explains my point and goes something along the lines of “only a fool give offense by accident, offense should be carefully directed” but damned if I can find it again.)

45

oh well, i’m the sort of person who’d wear jeans to a friend’s wedding party… to be the flower girl :slight_smile: the only thing about my clothes that i really care about is if they’re clean or not. oh yes, and i wear jeans whenever i can, if only for the strong (and highly washable) pockets. all kinds of things go into them… giggle

46

Maybe I’m getting shallow or too conservative or what not, but I get a little irritated by the way some people dress. If you’re at the job that does not involve physical labor, you should at least attempt to dress nice. I was at the dentist office yesterday for a cleaning. At the end of the cleaning, the dentist pops in for a quick look at my teeth. He was wearing blue jeans and sneakers. Can’t tell you why, but I found it inappropriate and a little disconcerting.

I notice, when I go to restaurants, that most people do not know how to dress. If you’re in a steak house and wearing shorts, sandals, white socks(or god forbid, black socks), a multi-colored t-shirt and a fanny-pack, my first impression is that you’re an idiot. That mode of dress is silly at McDonalds, but inappropriate at nicer restaurants. And while we’re at it, if you’re gonna wear shorts and t-shirt, can you pick some that match??? I see people wearing clothes that clash so badly that they could be seen from space with the naked eye.

When I say ‘nice’, that doesn’t mean spending a lot of money. I wear Dockers, a shirt with a collar and dress shoes to work. You may be wearing Levi’s, Nike shoes and some slogan t-shirt. Chances are, I paid less for my clothes than you did.

To sum up:

  1. Your clothes should be appropriate for the situation.
  2. Your colors should not be painful for others to observe.
  3. Your clothes should be the right size!!
47

I am not very good at dressing up. I really don’t feel comfortable in formal clothing, and even being tidy is an effort I’d rather avoid if possible.

But I recognise that, depite my own thoughts on the subject, the world will not conform to my ideals no matter how much I sulk about it, so in some situations I will make the effort to dress tidily and even appropriately formally, if I feel the need.

I once went to a wedding under-dressed, and I felt really guilty about it. I once worked in a job where I had to dress in a suit, despite the fact that it really was not necessary for the work I did. I once went to an interview dressed formally at the insistence of the recruitment agency, even though I guessed it wasn’t necessary - and I was right, so felt pretty stupid about being over-dressed.

Some people say I look good in a suit. I don’t care, if I feel uncomfortable, then I don’t enjoy myself, and I really would rather not be somewhere, especially socially, if I’m feeling uncomfortable for any reason.

I hope people don’t make too harsh a judgement of me when they see me in slightly inappropriate clothing - but first impressions really do count. Even I know I make snap judgements of people sometimes due to their dress or tidiness, so it clearly is a factor I have to be aware of for myself too.

Just my tuppence ha’penny.

48

I am the original fashion assassin who used to have the same mentality. I wore what I liked and to hell with anyone else. Up until it dawned on me that, like it or not, your first impression is based on your appearance. Yes, you can make up for it with an incredible personality and presense, but that takes a bit of time. This also works in reverse, but an asshole is pretty easy to spot whether in Levi’s or Armani. When I was with the government, I was field people. I wore whatever I wanted. Jeans, shorts, hawaiin shirts, etc… But come meeting time, travelling, etc. It was time to put on the suit, trenchcoat and nice shoes. I made my “f-you” statement with my ties. I can point you to a few offices in the Pentagon that will throw you out for wearing $100 suspenders with a $500 suit because the General thinks suspenders are not professional. This from experience. Now, my job requires me to wear slacks and collared shirts (I still wear Hawaiian shirts though) and it got to where I even wear them on weekends and golfing. I now own two pairs of jeans and only know where one pair is at any given moment. I’ve noticed that people do treat you a little differently. You’ll be assisted quicker while shopping, you get a little better service at restaurants, the cop will give you a warning instead of a ticket, and chicks DO like a sharp dressed man. Even with my wife, if I put on a certain pair of pants and a certain pair of shoes, I’m gonna get lucky that night. The shoes literally drive her nuts.

There was a saying I used to use. “You can put a pig in a suit, and all you have is a well dressed pig”.

Now it’s changed to, “Standing next to a muddy pig, a well dressed pig gets fed first and gets corn instead of the cob”.

Dress like a decent person, get treated like a decent person. Dress like a biker or punk, don’t be surprised if people don’t go out of their way to give you some gravy. Humans are shallow. It is their nature. That’s just the way it is. If I show up at a lumberjack bar in a suit and good haircut, I will be the guy that the chicks will giggle at and be the butt of jokes with the guys. (also from experience). There are appropriate clothes for all situations.

49

I’m with LordVor on this one. I work in SiliValley and the days of geeks wearing jeans and t-shirts to interviews are ending quickly.

I’m sure if you are skilled and have good references, you will probably eventually be able to get a good job somewhere, but you will not have the options that someone who is well-dressed does, and you will not get the highest offers or have the same negotiating power either.

At three very different kinds of tech companies over the past couple of years I have participated in interviewing and hiring roundtables for new QA engineers, developers, tech writers, and tech support specialists. Even at the height of .com hiring insanity, where anybody could get a job off the street, with next to no qualifications, the salary the applicants were offered would be more if they were dressed well.

Why? Because it shows they pay attention to detail. They have respect for the process, if they were interviewing fresh out of college it showed that they had done their homework and would put out the effort.

For a while the startups were valuing your brand of “individuality”, but in case you haven’t noticed, most of them have failed. In many cases because their business plans were for crap, but also because the bigger, more conservative corporations that are still the backbones of the industry would not respect the .coms as peers and partners worthy of doing business with.

Any place that would employ a DBA does not exist in a vacuum, and any company with long term viability understands that and expects its employees to work within the image they want to project.

You may be making plenty of money, but you probably aren’t making what you could be, and I think that’s just silly given the fact that it would involve wearing different pants that probably cost the same as your jeans, and a button down shirt, that might cost $10 more than the t-shirts you are so proud of.

You go ahead and enjoy your comfort. I’ll go enjoy the things a little more money can buy, like early retirement, when I will have a t-shirt collection to die for.

50

WOLFMAN,

That’s not what PLNNR said, and you cannot make it be what he said by mischaracterizing it.

Oh, right. A kid comes in and through his lack of effort disrespects the court, and it’s the judge who’s the disgrace. :rolleyes:

At this point, the judge was not addressing guilt or innocence; he was addressing the kid’s perceived lack of respect for his court. The point that you seem to be (willfully?) missing is that how you dress is a form of expression and sends a message to others, and if you dress inappropriately, the message you send is unlikely to be a positive one.

Ridiculous. What you wear cannot change the nature of a place. It is, however, a statement about how you feel about the place. Going to a syagogue service in a Speedo and flip-flops is disrespectful. It does not make the place less “holy” or “important;” it correctly makes the statement that you do not care if it is a holy, grave, or important place because you cannot be bothered to dress appropriately to go there.

But you, of course, are an elitist, of the worst variety. You are the type who expects everyone else in society to abandon their opinions on dress and convention in order to adhere to yours. And – again – you are elitist enought (and selfish enough) that you place your own person comfort above the offense you undoubtedly occasionally give dressing inappropriately.

I’m genuinely curious why you equate respect with absolute honesty, warranted or not. If your absolute honest opinion of the bride was that she was the ugliest woman you’d ever laid eyes on, would you show your “respect” for her by telling her so? Comfort does not equal honesty. Honesty does not equal respect. None of the three are mutually exclusive.

51

I’m not certain of the exact wording, but a quote I heard that was attributed to Mark Twain -
“Yes, indeed, clothes do make the man. Naked people have virtually no impact on society.”

myself - clad constantly in bluejeans & a t-shirt

52

As has already been said, honesty does not mean respect. If i respect the bride and groom at a wedding, i do my best to look nice and dress appropriately. I do not put my comfort above the respect i owe the bride and groom.

Here’s a possibly weak example that honesty doesn’ always mean respect:

Just yesterday at my brother’s wedding i did a reading at the church for them. I was nervous and would have rather not done it (public speaking in front of large groups makes me very nervous). I could have been honest and said “no, i wont do it because it makes me uncomfortable”. But because my brother’s wife asked me to do this reading for them, i did it as a sign of respect for her wishes (and to honor my brother and his wife).

53

I’ve been watching this discussion go back and forth. I completely comprehend the arguments about ‘respecting’ the venue and the desires of others when you go somewhere.

This reminds me of the old argument, that to communicate something new to someone, you start with the language that they understand, not the language you may be most comfortable with.

And yet… and yet… something deep inside me gets its back up at the thought of peoples’ judgements based on personal and clothing appearance. I know it happens, and part of me wants to cynically exploit it to the max, but another more idealistic part of me recoils in revulsion. I sympathise with wolfman as well. There does seem to be a degree of arbritariness about these clothing judgements.

Just count me as “likely to dress up but unlikely to be entirely comfortable with it”.

54

Jodi, that was beautifully put.

I’d still like to read from wolfman what his reaction would be if he went to a wedding and it was catered by fast-food burgers instead of fine food. I think it’s an appropriate parallel.

55

I need to ask Wolfman a question.

Let’s say that you’re at a casual get-together with friends at a public place. You’re wearing your customary jeans and T-shirt. At some point, a lady you don’t know strikes up a conversation with(or you initiate the conversation). You find you both have a number of things in common. You find her attractive. She seems to be interested in you(your self-percieved ugliness aside). You suck up the courage and ask her to have dinner with you in a couple of days. She says she’d love to, hands you a card with her address, and tells you to pick her up at 7.

When you get to her door, what will you be wearing?
I used to be a ‘jeans-only’ kind of guy when I was younger. I got a job at a company that had a dress code. I bought Dockers and Chinos pants and nice shirts and nice shoes.

I found that I moved differently when I wore them. It was strange, but not uncomfortable. After a while, they were very comfortable. Now I actually prefer to dress nicer. And I notice that I get treated better when I’m snazzy then when I’m not. Maybe that’s because I expect to be treated better because I feel better, I don’t know.

56

I spent a couple days pondering if I wanted to respond to that and finally decided I will.

I have been to weddings that were totally uncatered. I’ve also been to weddings that were pot luck, with grandmas bringing in 10 gallon vats of potato salad. I’ve also been to weddings where everyone who wanted to attend the reception were asked to pay for it them selves. And guess what I didn’t care. Would you really look down on people getting married if they couldn’t afford “champagne and French cuisine from the finest restaurant in town”. Would you come back to your friends snickering about the losers who weren’t willing to go into tremendous debt to impress you.

Not that that situation happens very often, But before the original evening ends I will make my views clear, that I will be wearing my clothes to any date that may happen. If I did get horny enough to buy ‘nice’ clothes just for the date I would later hate myself for lying to her just as if I had said I had a horrible disease and would die if I didn’t have sex, and she had bought it. So far I have not displayed either character flaw.

and while I’m here,

[quote]
Oh, right. A kid comes in and through his lack of effort disrespects the court, and it’s the judge who’s the disgrace.[\quote]

Please explain to me why repsecting the court has any impact on the functioning of the court. The judical system is based on the ideal of blind justice, the guilty are punished and the innocent go free. The accused has every right not to respect the court, and it shouldn’t effect the proceedings in the court. The judge’s little hissyfit and lettting it predjudice his view of the accused is disgraceful.

No, that is not the statement and it is not correct. That is an assumption judgemental people are likely to make.

And before someone brings up the argument. No it would not be the same if someone wore an SS uniform to a Holocost memorial service and claimed they were showing respect. The T-shirt and jeans make no statement in and of themselves other than I didn’t spend enough to get nice clothes to please you.

Without getting off track into a discussion on the limits of honesty, I will admit that I wish this was a world where absolute honesty was possible. No I would not tell her she was ugly. I can’t imagine a situation where I would be at the wedding and the bride would not be beautiful, simply because of the atmosphere, and the event taking place, since as I mentioned I will not be at a wedding where I don’t wish to respect the ceremony as a true and beautiful joining of two people. However if I did end-up at a wedding where I didn’t like the people and ended up in a situation where I was forced to talk to an ugly bride, I would drop my principles and lie and say she looked great. Honesty in that situation would be cruelty, and the greater evil. In the clothes situation, If the worst result of my honestly is that judgmental people think I’m low class, Then I couldn’t care less.

57

I think the point that Wolfie is trying to make is clothes SHOULDN"T matter. I will never understand how someone can be insulted or offended by jeans and t-shirts. Is a well dressed pig any less of a pig? Does that even make sense?

It is awful hard for a lot of people to look nice, even if they want to. I was very worried about going to a wake of a childhood friend a year or so ago because I had nothing to wear (Its not like a real fat person can just go to any store and buy a nice outfit) But my mother made everything better when she said “no one cares what you wear, its that fact that you show up to pay your respect that people will care about.” I guess she was wrong.

Remember, just because something is accepted and part of the status quo, does not automatically make it right. Clothes do not make the man anymore than skin color, or religion, or weight, or hairstyle.
peace,
JB

58

Finally, a viewpoint that can take me back to the middle and make me truely understand my own feelings on the matter.

I realize that for some people, either through financial, physical, or other situation simply cannot dress “well”. And here’s my last thoughts on the subject: I strive to not care how you actually look in any given outfit for any given event. But I reserve the right to have judgemental thoughts about the amount of effort that you put forth to look that way.

I think I’m happy thinking like that. It covers my feelings of “no jeans at formal occasions”, because jeans are the easy way out and take no effort, but covers situations like jabe’s where you would like to look nice, but are finding that impossible.

-LV