How much freedom should children have?

In My Humble Opinion
1

Sparked by this thread , I was wondering how much ‘freedom’ you think children should have and at what ages, and why.

My parents (mostly my mom) allowed me to be very independent and gave me a lot of freedom. Some of this backfired because I lacked maturity and responsibility in certain areas, and sometimes it was just a case of being naive.

So from my experience growing up, and experience raising kids I established rules & give advice when asked (ok, sometimes when not asked which is something I’m working on not doing).

Do not treat kids like adults. They lack experience. Relax the rules as they get older but only after they’ve shown responsibility. Baby steps.

Computers access:

Preferrably, keep the computer in a common room where anyone can walk in at any time and view what is on the screen. This will also help limit late-night access when supposed to be in bed sleeping.

If the child has their own computer (which this day and age seems to be increasingly popular) , no internet access in their rooms if under highschool age. Seriously - does an 8yr old really need internet access?

Children with internet access - monitor their browser history and if they access a questionable/adult web sight then get a program to block access to those sights. Dont threaten that you’ll check on them because most kids will challenge this, try it, and if they dont “get caught” they will continue. Sometimes we as parents just need to remove the temptation and not be so shocked if the kids do something they’re not supposed to. (just ask my friend who’s ex busted their 12yr old looking at porn).
With my oldest, I tried the “trust you til I bust you” but wasnt very good at monitoring so who knows how long he got away with it until I had to borrow his computer and saw his list. Granted, he was 17 and not 12, but he still tested my rules and where was I to enforce them? My oldest was the first to have unsupervised internet when he was 17, so I can only imagine what a 12yr old would do (I mean really, how many of you peeked at dad’s porn mags that were “hidden”… and expect your kids not to do the same so you dont lock yours up and keep the key on you?) Had he been 12, probably wouldve done the netnanny thing until he proved himself older and wiser and expecting mommy to know all.

So, with the girls, they did not have a personal computer with internet (they had to use mine) and I monitored and when they went someplace they werent supposed to, it was dealt with accordingly. The main prob I had with the middle child was her bad habit of downloading spyware infected programs. First time was a stern warning and grounding, the second time I changed all the passwords and she was locked out. When I found my youngest gave her password, they both lost access unless I was in the same room monitoring and I logged them in.

I did not use their logins to view personal mail and such since I pretty much was right there and could look at the screen at any time. With the 2 oldest out of the house, I have allowed to youngest (now 16) internet access on her own computer. I have monitored where she goes and have her as a friend on Myspace and have logins, and I can see who all is on her IM (but I do not read her messages because she has not given me a reason to or to check her mail).

So… that’s just the internet.

When the kids stayed over at a friend’s house, I would talk to the parent. There were times that I would call to talk with my child - asking them if they were having fun, confirm what time they would be home, or sometimes just telling them “hey, i forgot about…” that kind of thing… and I never was accused of not trusting them (but when it came to the internet…) Oh, and there were times I would have their friends call their parent to tell them goodnight so they thought it was “normal”.

As far as cellphones… that was their complete privacy until it was confiscated as a punishment, but i never came across anything other than some vulgar language via txt msg. Yeah… that was embarassing when mamabear responded by telling them not to talk to my daughter or anyone else like that (actually, I think I said something like “my, arent you showing your IQ with such mature language, keep it up and ‘A’ will never get her phone back”)

Alcohol - allowed kids to have w/meals (mostly a small amount of wine) or special occassion. Allowed them to go to parties with the understanding that they called me to pick them up if they had even 1 drink. (Hell, my son’s friends often invited me to the parties as well… which i would always declined except for offering to be the driver)
None of my kids had a DL before the age of 18 - mostly because I couldnt afford the insurance and car, and they wanted to spend their money on other things. the youngest is a possible exception since she just turned 16 and we will be living in the country.

Smoking - I catch you or even think you are smoking I will sit yer butt down and make you smoke until you are green and puking, rinse and repeat until you swear you wont smoke anymore. Ok, honestly, I probably wouldve done something like bombard them with health pamphlets showing disturbing pictures and make them read a book on the effects of smoking and a 10 pg report.

None of my kids smoke… the oldest I found out about after he moved out on his own. He never smoked in the house and I never smelled it on him, but I rarely saw him between school and work.

I’m far from being a perfect parent just as much as my kids are for being perfect kids.

So - what’s your story?

2

It depends largely on the kid, their temprament, age and maturity. For example, if you have a really insecure 13-year-old girl interested in dating a 15-year-old guy she doesn’t want to introduce to you, that’s a red flag. On the other hand, kids should be allowed the freedom to make - and fix - their own mistakes.

On the whole, it’s a really tough question to answer. Some parents are paranoid freaks; others give their kids so much freedom they border on neglectful. Striking that balance is crucial and very difficult. Even more important is helping the kid develop some common sense and allowing them to exercise it.

When my kid gets older, I’ll probably treat him much like the OP treats his own kids. When I was younger, my mom sent me out the door and told me to come back before dinner or call if I couldn’t. She let me have sips of wine at dinner after I was 14 or 15 and I strongly believe that it made me a much more responsible consumer since it wasn’t forbidden. Smoking wasn’t ok, but I learned on my own how stinky and unpleasant a habit that is. As for sex, well, she gave me all the information early. I made my own decision (not a very good one), but at least I was educated and safe.

Additionally, I don’t want schools to shield my kid from bad grades. That’s BS. He needs to know if he did poorly on a test. The stories coming out in the past few years about eliminating red pens and/or grades and test scoring because of kids’ self esteem strikes me as ridiculous and a very good way to create narcissistic, stupid little beasts who have no humility and no clue how little they know and how much there is to learn. They also have no drive to do better.

I have friends who are afraid of their kids meeting the outside world to such an extent they’ve practically bubblewrapped their children. They’re horrified that I’ll even consider leaving my two year old alone in the backyard for a second, much less the two minutes it takes me to walk up the drive, get the mail and come back down, even though the yard is fenced and he’s perfectly happy to shovel dirt from one pot into the other. These people have babyproofed every possible thing in their house, from cushioning their fireplace to putting rubber on table corners. The floor around the kid’s crib is lined with pillows and he only just learned to pull up. They don’t let their kid come over to my place because all I’ve done is remove solvents and pointy objects from reach and installed a baby gate and a few plug protectors. And that’s just their younger kid.

For their older kid, they give him a time out at every infraction, regardless of how slight. Poor table manners? That’s a time out. Spilling something on accident thanks to poor judgment or depth perception? That’s a time out. Strangely enough, though, they seem to encourage the kid to watch as much TV as he wants, I’m assuming because that keeps him nailed in one spot for hours on end. And they rarely take an eye off him, so he’s completely at loose ends if his parents aren’t in the room and the TV is off. The kid is only 7, but he’s given a time out for every mistake he makes, however innocent, so much so that he doesn’t speak much and when he does, it’s scarcely above a whisper. They’re not cruel about it, but the kid seems really uncomfortable in his own skin. I feel very sorry for him and for his parents. That’s got to be hard to be perfect all the time and it’s a big job to be the police 24 hours a day.

I think I’m generally a decent mom, but I have moments when I feel like the worst parent in the world. I don’t often get mad, but when I do, I yell. Loudly. And I probably make some stupid choices. Hopefully my kid will get through life without being too messed up.

And even though I obviously disagree with some of my friends’ choices, I admit that there may be things I’m missing. I don’t live with them, after all. And people do what’s right for them and hopefully it works well for their kids, too.

3

Absolutely agree.

From my post in the original thread:

My kid has his own computer, in his room.

He’s six.

Now, am I crazy? No, because the only thing he can do right now is use a browser, and that works only to domains that I have white-listed. His MAC address is blocked at my external router, and so he can only get out by hitting a proxy server I’ve set up to do the white-listing. If he wants to go somewhere that isn’t listed, he asks me to add the site.

I have an AD domain running at home, which means I have house-wide accounts and can enforce login time restrictions. After 9:00 (10:30 on weekends an dduring summer) he can’t log on; if he is logged on, he’ll be logged off. He has no admin access on the box, and I am pretty confident that this is effective security; I don’t see him circumventing it at all.

Does he need Internet access? I’d say yeah, he does – he’s a regular Webkinz user; he’s on cartoonnetwork.com a lot, and last year was a big pbskids.com fan (now he’s “too old” for that, sob!!)

4

That sounds awesome, Bricker. I agree that kids can benefit from the Internet just like they did/do from educational TV…but I also wish more parents could execute that same sort of Internet control plan that you have set up. As a former Getting Into Trouble Online Kid, I really advocate more parental controls on Internet availability.

ETA: I’m not coming down on parents who can’t figure out how to do what Bricker did, btw. I mean I wish more people were able to do that but it’s obviously not in everyone’s skill set.

5

I have two daughters that are two years and five years old. I think that Bricker has it right in the computer arena but I work in IT and can set things up correctly as well. You can’t stop them from seeing many things on a computer outside the house anyway. Two year olds can master basic basic computer skills faster than a 50 year old BTW. A 5 - 7 year old has already entered middle-age for computer skills training these days. It is bizarre if you sit a kid that age down and show them things. The basics take half an hour tops.

I had a ridiculous amount of freedom growing up because of bad family circumstances. I am 34 and I was allowed to drive places to do errands when I was 14 and I got my driver’s license on my 15th birthday. I got a job shortly thereafter and then bought a new small pickup that I worshiped. After that, I didn’t have any real restrictions on my behavior but I didn’t do that much wrong. I smoked and drank rarely but that was about it. My mother didn’t have much power over me after the age of 15 and my father certainly had none.

Some severe problems later turned up but I was technically an adult by then and it was unrelated to teenage freedom. I think I am am biased to the permissive side of things and access to most types of media content don’t bother me that much.

6

I didn’t even explain everything :slight_smile:

The proxy server I’m using is Privoxy, compiled locally with the option that removes the ability to force a connection past the blocking. I’m using their trust file, which means I can designate domains that are trusted referrers and not have to edit the trust file for every single new host.

Privoxy’s settings can only be edited by root. Root can’t even ssh to the server, so I have to ssh in and then sudo to root, which is audited.

I’m very curious to see what happens as the years go by. Bricker Jr. is a very good kid… but he’s very bright and inquisitive also.

7

Internet: The computer is in the living room. We have some kind of program on it (sorry for the vagueness, my husband’s the computer guy) that shows us what the kids are up to. I asked to see my daughter’s MySpace page the other day, but didn’t actually get around to it, so thanks for the reminder!

Cell phones: Both kids (ages 11 & 16) have them, and it’s great for me to be able to keep track of them. My son has gotten some small charges on our phone bill a couple of times. We have him pay for them and go over what’s to be done to keep it from happening again.

Alcohol: I’d let them have a sip, but neither of them wants any. They’ve seen someone behave badly after drinking, and plus they don’t like the taste.

Drugs, smoking: Emphatically not interested.

Going out, or being unsupervised: The boy spends the night at his friends’ houses or plays in the neighborhood. I don’t let him go outside unless there’s a responsible adult at our house, so there’s someone he can contact quickly in need. He can stay home alone. No friends in the house without our presence and permission.

The girl…I worry about her. She doesn’t go places with friends or out on dates or talk to people on the phone. I don’t particularly want her riding in cars with kids her age, but the issue hasn’t even come up. She hasn’t learned to drive.

I have a teenage stepson staying with us right now. His dad gives him what I consider a ridiculous amount of freedom (for instance, going out on school nights, and not having any consequences for not coming home at the agreed-upon time), but I say little about it. The kid has a license and is about to get his own car.

I was kept on a very short leash as a teenager and my mom and grandma checked up on me a lot. I think it did keep me out of trouble most of the time, but on the other hand, I was apt to go wild whenever I got away from them. I want to be a little more permissive than they were.

8

I have a 17 yo still at home (and a 21 yo moved out and a daddy already), and two younger ones aged 7 and 9.
Let’s see:
Cell phone: my 17 yo has one. I paid for it until he got a job; now he pays me for his monthly bill. Little ones don’t have one and won’t get one until they’re much older.
Computer: in my room. Little ones use it sometimes to play games, but they aren’t really old enough to surf much, and I don’t allow it unless I’m directly supervising. Older one usually just looks for music videos on youtube.
License/driving: My two older ones were at least 17 before they began driving. I provide whatever car I can manage, but they pay for insurance, gas, and plates. (Well, my oldest one has his own car now, as he’s Mr. Independent.)
Drugs/booze: This is where I pull a not-in-my-house, pal on the kids. I have no tolerance for this from most adults, much less from a teenager. Same with smoking.
Dating/social life: Once I trust my kid, I give him pretty free rein. My 17 yo is the coolest, most responsible kid I could ask for. Judging from the things he has told me, it’s pretty apparent that he will tell me pretty much anything, which is good. He works a lot, and that often means late hours, but I always know that he’ll be home before I need him to help with the kids in the morning. Up until he was 16 or so, though, I always checked in with the Other Parents on every overnight, party, get-together, etc.
Now he’s talking about going out of state to open for a band this summer, and I’ll have a whole 'nother situation to consider. Actually, come to think of it, he’ll be 18 by then…but I’m still not sure I’d let him go without Momma along to supervise. :slight_smile:

9

3 kids:
20.5 girl college soph
near-19 boy, graduated HS tonight, colleg bound
near-17 girl, HS senior next year.

The idea of kids having “freedom” sounds a little off to my ear. In some ways, isn’t freedom somewhat absolute? I guess you can have “a little bit” of freedom, but like I said, it just sounds odd to me.

In response to your general question, the one point I can identify is when they have complete freedom, and that would be when they have moved out of my house and are completely responsible for their finances. So long as they are living in my house, and/or I am contributing to their education and/or upkeep, they are going to have to at least avoid blatantly doing things they know are going to really ditress/displease their mom and I.

So I guess there is a progressive sliding scale up until they reach that point. Essentially, we are very eager to grant them more and more freedom. Heck, the more independent they become, the less there is for us lazy old farts to do! And we readily afford greater and greater freedom so long as they don’t make obvious bad judgments, fulfill their obligations, and are pleasont contributing members of our household.

When they’ve done things we really dislike/disapprove of - such as when 2 of the kids were constantly fighting with each other and refusing to change anything - we’ve had blatant discussions with them, telling them that if they choose to be unpleasant shits, they can choose to move their asses out of the house. We’ve also told them that we think that would be a really stupid decision on their part, to forego the lifestyle we support, and the emotional support we offer. But we refuse to let their petty squabbles detract from the entire household’s quality of life. Such straight talk seems to make sense to them.

Regarding the specifics you mention:

Cellphone - we got our first family cellphone when my wife and I wanted to go out, and thought the kids were old enough to babysit themselves. Only had 1 cell until the oldest when to college, when we got her one. We’ve gotten a 3d, which the boy will take with him. Neither of the oldest 2 missed having one at all. The youngest would like one. She’ll get one when she goes to college - or maybe next year depending on our plan.

Computer - at first we just had one in the family room. We told the kids we retained the right to check anything on the computer, tho we told them we doubted we would so long as they didn’t give us a reason to suspect they were doing anything stupid.
We told them we think privacy is more important than many folks think these days, informed them of what we consider the possible mistakes folks make with facebook/myspace, and encouraged them to keep privacy settings high.
At present they all have their own computers - the 2 oldest have portables for college. Me - I’m still using the old clunker in the family room! :wink:

License/driving - they could take their license whenever they felt ready, but that didn’t give them free access to a car. For the most part, they can have a car to go places like music lessons or other school/extracurricular committments. But we are lucky that we live within walking distance of the HS. They can never ASSUME they will have access to a car. They must ask if they can have a car - and we almost always say yes so long and mom and I don’t both need cars at that time. They walk or bike anywhere under 2 miles or so - including their jobs. Unless it is absolutely freezing or pouring.

drugs/booze - they’ve always been free to try alcohol at home. Other than tiny sips, they say they dislike the taste and are not interested. I almost wish my eldest drank socially - I’m concerned her abstnence might somewhat limit her social connections in college.
AFAIK, none of them have done any drugs. Say they are not interested. They know I was a pretty heavy partier in my day, and I have told them that if they have any questions at all about drugs (or sex), to ask me. Not sure how we raised such straight arrows. :confused:

dating/social life - I remember kids were dating in junior high. We told our kids that was too young to be BF/GF, and encouraged them to go out in co-ed groups. Eldest had BFs through HS. When she was 2-years into a relationship with a loser, we sat down and talked about it, and she later broke up with him - much to our entire family’s benefit. Now she is dating a really nice guy.
My youngest is too lazy to do what it takes to have a BF!
Curfews increased progressively, tho we always stuck with what the law said. Once a kid is legal, and especially when they go to college, it is kinda silly to tell them they MUST be home by some time or another. Hell, we’ll be asleep by then anyway! But we do aske where they are going and when they expect to be in. And we don’t necessarily let folks sleep in all hours just because they stayed out late the night before.

10

Tell me about it! I checked my daughter’s MySpace page last night and found absolutely nothing of concern. Child ain’t right.