How much has Chinese culture changed since China went Communist?

From Bertrand Russell’s The Problem of China (1922).

Can all of that still be true, today, in one of the fastest-industrializing countries in the world?

Can that attitude have survived decades of indoctrination by an anti-avarice philosophy like Communism, in an environment where wealth without power is (until recently) impossible?

I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s still the same; it sounds like the kind of thing that is very deeply rooted in a culture.

(Say what you will about the emperors, at least they had a somewhat effective famine-relief program – they bought grain when it was cheap, stored it in silos, and doled it out during famines. But China in 1922 was too disrupted and disorganized and corrupt for that. And Mao’s government during the Great Leap Forward was too, well, crazy.)

And most tellingly, when we consider Mao Zedong’s victory in the Civil War, and subsequent episodes like the Hundred Flowers Campaign and the Cultural Revolution:

Mr. Russell’s comment about a large proportion of “Chinamen” becoming Christian was rather prophetic considering the growth of Christianity there although quite a few of the sects are heretical cults.

Are they fanatical?

I have been living and working in China for the past 7 years.
I would say that the Chinese character, in general, today is the same as observed by Russell.

Everyday I enjoy the Chinese people’s sense of humor, and I have laughed with them many times.
Chinese can be very kind to their friends and family, but the callousness towards strangers that I have observed in Chinese on a regular basis is both disgusting and disappointing.

I’m in China again for the 5th time. This was extremely interesting to read.

I was actually talking about something like this with a guy at a wedding the other day. When he asked me how I thought Westerners and Chinese were different, I answered that Chinese often care much more about their friends than Americans do, and Americans will often treat strangers better than Chinese will.

Avarice and corruption are certainly problems. Mao took a really hard line against corruption but it came back under Deng.

Christianity (and Buddhism/Chinese Religions) is growing remarkably, and there are groups that could be characterized as fanatical.

I’m not sure that Russell is the authority on pre-Communist China, and I’m not sure it really makes sense to talk of a “Chinese character” in all but the broadest terms.

I can say this.

Ask any foreigner in China what the hardest part of living in China is, and they are likely to say it is difficult to make true friends. It is easy to make friendly acquaintances, but it takes years to develop even a single “share your hopes and fears” kind of friendships, and it can be difficult to feel like a part of social circles, rather than a guest of them.

Ask any Chinese person what the hardest part of the US is, and they are likely to say it is difficult to make true friends. I’ve been told that our friendships seem shallow and superficial, and it’s hard for them to feel a real emotional connection with their American friends.

When observing another culture, you are also observing your own.

I wonder if the huge size of China’s population - 1.3 billion - makes people feel callous towards strangers, a drop-of-water-in-the-ocean syndrome.
But Americans, as **nani **pointed out, treat strangers better than many people in other countries - countries with much less than America’s population of 300 million. So culture may be much more of a factor than population size.

“The authority” would be some historian specializing in it; Russell was just an academic who taught philosophy there and wrote about his impressions and experiences of the country. (Not that he shied away from political commentary and prescriptions, that’s what the book is mainly about.)

Cultures have different ways of conceptualizing in-groups and out-groups. In the U.S., we have a wide, shallow in-group. We feel a small obligation to basically everyone, but we have some pretty hard limits on how deep that obligation goes. We don’t, for example, consider it an absolute obligation to financially support adult family members.

In China, the in-group is more distinctly defined. People have very clear social networks (family, members of the same work unit, classmates) that you have a very deep obligation to. It’s actually illegal not to provide support for your elderly parents. In high school, you’ll probably stay with a single class all four years, and most of your social activities will be within that class-- you may not have any friends from other classes, but your relationship with your classmates will be extremely close. On the flip side, this means you have relatively little obligation to strangers.

When I first arrived in China, people were taken aback that I was a volunteer. Some asked if I was sent there as punishment or if it gave me special status with the government when i returned. Ar first, I thought it was a sign that they did not care about others. But I slowly realized that volunteering, in that mindset, is seen as wildly irresponsible. To my student, I had a very real obligation to help my family and my immediate community, and to work without pay for two years was basically stealing from my family. They were sitting there thinking I was the one that didn’t care about others.

FWIW, I think this is changing, and volunteering has entered local consciousness thanks to well-publicized disaster response efforts.

“The Chinese people have only family and clan solidarity; they do not have national spirit…they are just a heap of loose sand…Other men are the carving knife and serving dish; we are the fish and the meat.”

Sun Yat-sen

How, in all of these regards, if at all, does the culture of today’s China differ from that of Taiwan, which has not been through Communism? Anyone know?

Maybe Sun Yat-sen said that because they weren’t all that loyal to him :wink:

I’m now finishing up River Town: Two Years on the Yangtze, which was written by a Peace Corps English teacher. Asked to name the happiest day of their lives, a goodly portion of the author’s students named the Hong Kong sovereignty transfer. Of course, not everyone sees the unequal treaties as deep continuing injuries, but I think there are at least as many jingoist there as where I live, the US. And the US does have a lot of super-patriots!

While the source I will link to is an example of censored journalism, the headline seems plausible:

85% say Mao’s merits outweigh his faults: poll

One part of me thinks there must be something to the idea that there is a Chinese cultural spirit. But another part thinks any attempt to describe it up will inevitably be full of error.

I haven’t been to the PRC. But I think it is safe to say that Taiwanese are more polite and less likely to litter. And it is also safe to say that this predates Chinese communism.

From what I gather, Hong Kongers will sometimes criticize the mainland tourists they see littering – to their face. Taiwanese are too polite to do this, and instead discretely mutter about it to themselves.

The first thing I would say about Taiwanese is – they are friendly. I can’t hardly go through a day without being approached on the street to talk about someone’s child who lives in America. It even happens in Taipei, where seeing a western face is no rarity.

Hmm. Leaving political systems and ideologies aside, to what extent is Taiwan’s national culture, as a culture, different from China’s? Did Chinese-speaking Taiwanese (I’m not thinking of the non-Chinese aboriginal minority) even think of themselves as Chinese before Chiang showed up with his army and followers and refugees?

To what extent the Taiwanese ever were Chinese is a big question influenced by political considerations.

See:

One reason I want to say Taiwan isn’t Chinese is that the Chinese government frequently threatens Taiwan’s soverignty, and backs up the threats with a couple thousands missiles pointed at a country where our youngest son lives.

As to your question, the first point is that, in 1945, there were hardly any Chinese-speaking Taiwanese. In the nineteenth century, I guess there were more, and there certainly were Chinese-reading Taiwanese (arguably more than today, since Taiwan does not use the mainland’s written characters).

See Wikipedia:

Taiwan today has de facto independence. But the Peoples Liberation Army vows to invade if that independence is ever clearly declared. This greatly distorts Taiwanese politics, which is filled with arcane-to-outsiders disputes over how far they dare go in plainly stating what most Taiwanese feel. Call it Chinese New Year? Then there’s a good chance you support the ruling Kuomintang, a party which used to threaten to retake the mainland but now quakes in fear of offending it. Call the same holiday the Lunar New Year, and point out how similar it is to Vietnam’s Tết? Then you probably vote for the almost pro-independence Democratic Progressive Party (DPP).

You could see the DPP as the more nationalist of the two. But in US political terms, the DPP is much more liberal.

IMO this answer from the Quora page is one of the best:

"There is a difference between being culturally Chinese and a citizen of China (PRC) which English fails to capture.

Most people who call themselves Chinese mean that they are culturally Han Chinese, but don’t want to be construed as being from the PRC and following the PRC view from Beijing. Many Taiwanese now call themselves Taiwanese simply because they see behavior and policies which they don’t want to be a part of."

Having lived in Taiwan for a great part of my life, I will say that this accurately sums up my personal experiences there. Of course, this is a difficult political issue so I can’t claim to represent any sort of majority.

Now, regarding attitudes before the arrival of the KMT, I think that this is still quite complicated. After all, the Japanese spent a good deal of time trying to make these ethnically-Chinese Taiwanese into Japanese subjects. However, we do gain a good deal of insight from the KMT, which posited that Taiwanese would have to be “Sinicized.”

This makes it seem like Communism as such never really stuck to the masses. There’s no sense of solidarity in the scenario you describe.

That’s the thing, though. There IS solidarity, as meaningful and deep as anywhere else, it’s just differently focused.

A metaphor I use is that when I lived in Cameroon, I had a small yard in front of my house that was filled in with gravel and dirt. Ringing the yard were trees with fine, narrow leaves and gorgeous yellow flowers. Naturally, these leaves and flowers would fall in the yard, but never in large quantities, just what you’d expect to find in a yard. I ignored the local custom of laboriously sweeping the yard several times a day with a small broom, because why would I sweep the dirt?

Well, Cameroonians hated it. Pretty much everyone who visited would say “Your yard is so dirty!” People would send their kids over at dawn to sweep it before I woke up. People gave me gifts of brooms. It really just did not go over welll. Eventually, I gave in and hired someone to do the sweeping, as obnoxious and uneccesaary as it seemed to keep a pristine patch of dirt.

In my mind, that space was “yard space” and not expected to be particularly clean. In Cameroon, that space was considered living space, and having leaves all over it was pretty much the same as having leaves all over your living room.

Later, I went to China, where in most places it’s customary at all but the finest restaurants to throw bones, gristle, sunflower seed shells, orange peels and used napkins (and even spit) right on the floor. The lunch place I used to go to would develop a two foot-deep pile of trash on the floor during the lunch rush. This was cleaned upr egularly, and nobody seemed to mind.

A lot of people walk away thinking “My God, Chinese people are just dirty.” But that’s not really it. The floors in private homes, for example, are typically pristine. Shoes are always removed at the door, in part because they’ve been traversing all kinds of gross things like restauarnt floors. Just like my yard in Cameroon was “dirty” space to me and “clean” space to Cameroonians, a restaurant floor is a “dirty” space in China, while it is a “clean” space to Americans. It’s not that one group of people is just cleaner or dirtier than the other group (despite the Cameroonians thinking I was clearly a slob), but it’s that these values are expressed in ways that may be unrecognizable to outsiders. Generally, though, things tend to balance out into a coherent system.

I think the same thinking applies to any number of cultural observations.

Considering how easily they shrugged it off, I’m guessing that’s the case.

I don’t think communism (in its economic sense) could ever have lasted for long in China. Chinese people, in general, have been and are a shrewd, business-minded, profit-minded people. They are capitalist to the core. I’m not saying that in an attacking way, but simply a matter-of-fact way.